Today on The Mind Over Law Podcast, we have a special guest, Jesse Wilson, who is a communication specialist, author, and a jury trial consultant.
He is a Juilliard graduate.
And after 30 years of working in the world of theater, Jesse created tell the winning story to empower trial lawyers to deliver high impact presentations as well as rapidly transform their communication and collaboration skills to prepare clients and witnesses to testify effectively.
Welcome, Jesse.
We're so excited, excited to have you here.
I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Lexlee, I am so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's been a hot minute since we've seen each other.
So I'm really excited to catch up with you about what's going on in your world and what you're doing and creating and all the things.
Well, let's start first with for those that don't know you, you have a really fascinating story because I just said that you had 30 years in theater and I know that you went from that to actually creating a program that brought you into working with inmates and behind the bars and a program that you created called crossroads.
And I think that is fascinating.
Can you tell us what inspired and how that happened and what your purpose?
What was your motivation behind going, taking theater into prisons?
Got it.
I love the way you say theater.
You say theater.
It's interesting.
Love that.
Well, the program actually originally started off, the title was called Crossroads.
As much as I loved it and as much of what it implied that had a kind of a religious connotation to a lot of people were like, well, what is it?
Is this a religious thing?
So then it became lessons from the stage.
Lessons from the stage.
Then it became less and then that took off.
So the backstory is I was an actor for many years.
And then it became very evident that that was not my calling.
I was great at it.
I loved it, but I hit a wall.
My calling was when I became a teacher to fast forward going from working with kiddos, at risk youth and kids who are on the spectrum and how could I reach them to the arts?
The major, major turning point in my life came when I was invited to teach theater in prison.
I always have to say I taught in prison as a guest.
That's when it took off for me.
And it changed my life both personally and professionally because I saw how powerful the tools of the theater were in the hands of people who could give a flying, you know, what about acting or Hollywood or juilliard or entertainment?
Something in their life needed to change yesterday.
And how could I reach them.
And so all of a sudden, these tools, these lessons from the stage, became healing instruments, became agents for change, became transformation.
And then I became the witness to the work that I had been doing for years and didn't really quite know how powerful it was.
Wow.
There's so much I want to unpack just from that first.
I want to back up to where you really loved what you were doing and being in theater, but knew that it wasn't that you were being called to something more because I think that we often get stuck in our stories, that we're just doing what is and what is expected of us, etcetera.
And it can be really hard to listen to that call.
Is there one thing that helped you to do that?
Yeah.
Fascinated with my life and stopped judging it.
Wow, Jesse, that's great.
The greatest roadblock there is to every single one of us on the human planet and certainly with lawyers who I, as you know, spend 99.9% of the time working with today.
Yes.
Single greatest roadblock to all great directors, to all great actors and all great human beings.
It's judgment.
Yes.
Yes.
You can approach your life as the witness.
You become the watcher, and then you become fascinated with your life and you start using your life instead of fighting your life.
And I know you talk about this all the time, and it's the breakdown for me of old story to new.
Story to new story.
And the power of story in our lives is so important.
And, you know, going, circling real back real quick to the work that you were doing with inmates.
Were you working with, like, teenagers at first?
Is that what you were?
So.
At first, yeah.
So middle school students.
I said, kiddo, so I ran.
Really?
I was in the first year of building an arts program at, technically, it's called a gifted and talented school.
It's called, was called the Academy for Advanced and creative Learning, Colorado Springs.
And it was working with middle school students.
And then, of course, I would do workshops with high school students.
I was doing all kinds of teaching because, you know, when you're a teacher, you're trying to grab everything you can to supplement your income.
But yes, I was working with primarily with teenagers at the time before making the transition into prison.
It was almost like my dress rehearsal for, oh, shit, got it right.
And then when you went into prison.
So the whole power of it was, from what I understand, you have a great TEDx talk out there.
We will definitely link that for our listeners.
But it was really helping them to see their story and maybe to heal and even victims to heal.
Can you say a little bit about that?
What the tools used to do that?
Because what's what, all we're talking about is, like, the different ways of using stories in our lives, but you've really implemented it in some very powerful ways, not just with the inmates, but what you're doing with lawyers and helping them with their clients and witnesses and all the things what we did, and it.
Wasn'T just to sound cute, but what we.
And I say we.
There was a team of people that I work with, primarily a guy named Dave Fine who brought me into prison.
What we were doing together was essentially helping the inmates put on a play of their lives.
There's no intellectualism here.
You want something to change, you get on your feet and in body, the change.
Wow.
So to become the witness, to become the watcher to your life, is to be able to look at yourself literally as if you were a character.
And then they got to play multiple characters.
They play.
We took the crime.
A lot of the stuff that we see in psychodrama.
I was doing psychodrama before I even knew it had a name.
But we take the crime, we take the act, and this is all part of a restorative justice program that helped them integrate back into the world, or some of the people that I worked with were lifers.
They ain't ever going to go anyway.
So what kind of positive impact can you affect right here, right now in your life?
And so it's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing to embrace it.
Right.
Powerful work, my friend.
I love hearing this.
How did that turn from working with inmates and then now in the amazing work that you're doing with trial lawyers all over?
Well, the fascinating thing is that the foundation for the approach that I take in every single case, with every single case, with every single client, I don't care what the case is, is the victim to Victor approach, which I know we're going to be talking a little bit more about.
But that became the foundation for the work, and it started in prison.
As a guest, I didn't call it victim to Victor, but the same approach, the same methodologies, really the exact same language that I use in witness prep.
And then story strategy with lawyers began in prison, began in barred, because the message that I had that was lived in these workshops is you are not your pain.
Who you are is the strength of trying to overcome your pain.
Well, that's what helped them shift from old story into new story is the re identification of what is my role now.
And so look how that translates into trial.
I mean, it was just a natural segue.
It was a bridge, right?
So that using it in their personal stories, I could totally see how it's a natural segue.
And, you know, we often talk about, and I often am teaching about that.
Everything comes in the power of the story that you tell yourself and what your experience is.
Instead of looking at it as the worst thing that happened to you, it might be the thing that uncovers what your purpose is.
You bet.
What your mission is or your passion or what is it calling you to be or calling you to heal?
Who's it calling you to become?
I think that's fascinating, but I want to turn in more into the victim to Victor story and how that's used in the courtroom and in your book, which is if listeners, if you've not read Jesse's book, you want to reach out and get it.
It's put out by trial guides.
It's called how to tell the winning story, witnessed preparation, and it all about the victim to Victor story.
And I'm just thinking about when I was a younger plaintiff's lawyer, spent a lot of time in a courtroom trying to impress the jury with how injured my client was and how much the damages were.
And this is such a counterintuitive approach to presenting the story of the client.
What do you do with someone who might be listening to this?
That would be like, well, I mean, if we talk about how much they've overcome, then that's going to affect my, my damage model.
I'm sure that's the first objection that you get.
The whole point of that book was to address that objection, right?
Yes.
Tell us about that.
And then how could I possibly maximize my damages?
If you tell the story of strength, if you're telling a story of hope, if you're telling the story of joy, your message to your jurors, whether you say these words or not, is this only 100% of the time?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is not their pain.
They're not their brain injury.
They are not their pain.
Who they are is the strength of trying to overcome their pain.
And I cannot wait for you to meet them.
And when you show somebody who is trying to overcome their pain to the best of their ability, not only are they a more credible witness, not only do you get out of the sympathy trap, but you maximize the living shit out of your damages.
Because when we see somebody trying to overcome something, you've now revealed their pain at an even greater level and not have to as we say in the theater, give it away so cheaply.
Yes.
And isn't it what we really connect to?
Right.
Like on a heart level, as, as humans, we want to cheer on the hero.
Yeah.
Right.
That's the victor.
Right.
And when you're in disapprove, we do.
And it seems so obvious, doesn't it?
It seems so obvious that duhdeh.
But you know, when I first started doing this work, I was just starting to understand the legal world and found it rather daunting, mainly in the one area where I felt, am I allowed to be able to address my painful concern about why I feel the lawyer is telling the wrong story of their client?
And it began with the conversation and I'm not going to name the person's name, although if I get his permission, he might allow me because it's a great story.
But here's where it really began.
This is one of the first cases that I worked on and up until then, I was like a human sponge in the courtroom and I was trying to learn as much as I could.
And I asked this guy what was one of his favorite movies and he said, well, you know, the all time classic, of course.
Rocky.
Yeah.
All right.
We all, I said, you know, why do you love Rocky?
Well, you know, I love, because the guy never gives up and everybody thinks he's a nut.
The standard answer that you hear about the movie Rocky.
And I said to him, let's just call him Eddie.
I said, eddie the lawyer.
You know, everybody loves the underdog story, right?
Well, yeah, I mean, we love stories about people who don't give up?
I said, eddie, how come we're not telling that story in the courtroom?
If we love the underdog story so much in movies and plays people who don't give up, then how come that underdog story is not being told in the courtroom?
Why are we just seeing a witness on the stand talking about what they can't do, saying the four letter word that you should never have a witness say, which is, can't you want to have them say, it's hard for me to.
It's difficult for me to.
It's a struggle for me, too, but you never want to have them say, how come we're doing that?
And he said, exactly what you said.
I mean, if I show that this person's kicking ass, the jurors aren't going to care.
So what if we tried that theory out?
Let's just try that.
But I saw the shift.
I didn't realize how big that was.
Nobody.
Lexlee is going to say, I've yet to hear.
Maybe you have, but I haven't.
Anybody coming up to me said, jesse, it's funny.
I really love movies about people who give up.
I love movies about whiners.
I love movies about victims.
Nobody's to nobody said that.
Right.
If that's true, then how come you're telling that story in the courtroom?
Exactly.
It makes so much sense.
And, you know, we also know that if we stressing so much on how somebody was harmed, you know, let's say they were hit.
And, you know, I think there was a, there's a story that you tell in the book of a case where a lawyer is giving examples just to see how focus group was connecting in.
And correct me if I'm wrong, and one story was about this family that was in a crime and it was all about that.
Right.
The suffering kind of part of it.
And the other story was really more about telling about who the people were and which one did they, when they heard those two different stories, made them think about their own children or grandchildren.
And really the difference comes down to is that we actually, we have this unconscious need to protect ourselves from ever being in the place that we could be in that kind of tragedy.
So if we're always telling the story of the suffering as opposed to the one that is overcoming, that creates a disconnect that we're not even really.
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
What we're really talking about here, if we're going to break it down, that example that you gave is perfect because it illustrated the power of what I call the second wing of the plane.
When it comes to the victor story.
Okay.
It's not enough just to identify the victor story.
What happens to a one wing plane?
It goes down pretty fast.
What happens when you add the second wing of the plane?
You're in flight.
The second wing of the plane to the victor story is joyous.
The element of joy, when you tell a story with Joy, in the example that youre giving, yeah.
Okay.
Im giving you the details.
Im giving you the things about, say, the example of a boy at a soccer game and hes running on the field and hes kicking ass and everybodys cheering his name and in the stands of the family cheering him on, theyre going, go Rudy, go Rudy.
Theres two ways of telling that story, the factual way, which is often what I hear when people come to the workshops.
All right, I got, I got a good Victor story, Jesse, of my client.
So, yeah, you know, she gets out of bed and she finds the strength to grab the walker.
And she's walking across the street.
She turns around, and she goes back to bed.
And next day, she's going to walk around the block for maybe, you know, another 20 minutes.
Well, okay, I just gave you the story, but what the hell was missing there?
Joy.
Joy.
Because it didn't sound like it was very joyful.
Just going, I sound like I was at a damn funeral.
But that's what they often hear.
Okay, well, I got a good victory.
Yeah, on paper it's great.
But what's the difference between a great production of Hamlet and a shit production of Hamlet?
The words don't change.
It's what's behind it.
And so that element of joy is the second wing of the plane.
And that is the emotion that is the most terrifying that I've seen for lawyers, and especially for witnesses, and they're one and the same, and that's what I'm always on the lookout for.
Why is it the most terrifying?
Well, let's go back to the fear of telling the victor story in the first place.
If I tell the story with joy, then I'm sure I'm showing that everything.
She's kicking ass.
How about the feeling of joy for the inspiration?
You feel that she's able to do this despite her pain?
How about that feeling of joy out of your client?
Are you excited about what they've overcome?
Despite, you know, the defense is saying that they're a liar, a cheater, and a fraud, and they can't do this.
I cannot wait to tell you about how she gets her ass up out of bed every morning and grabs that walker and walks halfway down the block.
And then, you know, she's exhausted, she comes back and she recoups.
But tomorrow she's going to go another 20 minutes.
I cannot wait to tell you that story.
Now, that's me being a little bit more animated, but that contains the essential element of what you have to have.
Otherwise, you got a one wing plane.
Yes.
Yes.
And I understand because we've repeated it now with about why it's scary for the lawyers.
But you just said it's one of the most terrifying things for the witness.
Is it the same thing?
There's this mentality that I have to.
I'm the victim.
You're the victim.
So what I was thinking about when I was reading your book and thinking about how when you're working with these clients and helping them to see their own victor story, how incredibly healing that must be.
You said the word.
I'm not a therapist.
I am not a counselor, but this work is deeply therapeutic.
And if lawyers don't embrace their role in that element, to me, it's you're missing out on a huge, huge part of what you're able to do.
This is transformative work.
You're healing.
Thats justice is healing that healing is a conversation thats not talked about enough of in jury selection.
But this work is profoundly healing.
I remember going back to prison, Lexlee, one of the most profound things that I ever heard come out of anybodys mouth, but came from this big tatted out dude.
And he wasnt trying to be clever.
It was in the middle of a lunch break, I think.
I talk about this in my book and he comes up to me and he says, man, Jesse pain is a really mean storyteller.
And I said, that's exactly right, isn't it?
I'm going to steal that only for the rest of my life.
It's a mean storyteller.
It tells you things about yourself that aren't true.
99.9% of the witnesses that I work with have painfully cast themselves in the wrong role because they have been allowed to by the lawyer.
You, the lawyer, are the director for the right story that must be told.
What is the director always on the lookout for?
A great director knows that you want to be able to find the strength of.
This is why I always give the example of Willie Lohman in Death of a Salesman.
You want to be able to find the strength of that person, that character, even if it's not readily available and accessible in the script, you've got to find it.
Otherwise, you've got a really bad production of Death of a Salesman.
The right production of Death of a Salesman from a directorial choice is to say Willie Lohman is a fighter.
And he's going to, even if all evidence shows that he's circling the drain like a hot turd, he's going to do everything he can to turn it around.
That's what the great director is always on the lookout for.
So you got to get them cast in the right role.
They have to know almost immediately what their job is because you can bet that every second that ticks on by, they're getting further and further and deeper and deeper, enmeshed within this idea of who they think that they're supposed to.
And I tell witnesses this, and I hope you understand, Miss Jones, I am not minimizing your pain in any way, shape or form.
I meet the client where they're at.
But ultimately, I want to let you know whether you're on board with it or not.
This is the job.
This is the work that we have to tell.
And I come back to the lawyer saying, if your client were standing in front of the jurors, the message is, ladies and gentlemen, the jury misses Jones is not her pain.
She is the strength of trying to overcome their pain.
They hear those words, they nod.
Already, their brain is being rewired around the pain.
And now, misses Jones, I don't even want to talk about your case right now.
I want to talk about something in your life that actually gives you joy.
Not a huge amount, maybe just a little bit of joy.
You start there, and now you're furthering the casting process.
They're understanding their roles, and then the work begins.
And the power of the story that you say, and you talk about this in the book, that joy is the connection between people.
And if you can tell that story in the courtroom, then that's the thing that the jury is really going to fight for, right?
Is to inspire that joy.
And what I love is then when you talk about, and you and I have had some conversations because we've been together and taught in different ways and to learn about each other's work and how strongly connected it is, is that when we cast ourselves, like you said, in a certain role, if we have some experience that happens to us, we walk out of it with certain beliefs about ourselves in the world, we can unconsciously go forward with some of that.
That might be very, very limiting.
So it's like casting into the light onto what is the more empowering story that I could tell.
And that usually always brings in some kind of joy because it comes back to what we're talking about.
Like when I said, what is it calling me to be?
What is this challenge calling me to be?
Or who is it calling me to become?
Or what is it calling me to heal?
It's all intertwined, isn't it?
Like the story is very powerful in the courtroom.
That's going to connect people, which is going to have the jury on your side.
But it's also about seeing the bigger picture, I think, and how it's healing for a client that gets to experience that.
It's healing for the jury.
I think you say in the book that the jury is actually the one that's providing with the healing.
Say something about that.
A common theme.
It's not every case.
I'll give you an example of that I'm always looking for is theme that I call let's help the helper.
And if you could find the story of your client where they were helpers, that they gravitated towards that, that's where they found their strength.
That's where they found their center before they got hurt.
And if you can find the story of how they're still trying to do that, but it's really difficult.
But then the people around them are the people around them, the other lay witnesses or close family friend or whatever are trying to help her, then what you have is a powerful theme that is now anchored into the jurors where let's help the helper.
And in the process, because you've talked about this, hopefully in jury selection, that justice is healing, that with their verdict, they get to see that this is about healing that person, and then you've got that powerful connection going on.
Hopefully that made sense.
Yeah, it did.
And I love the message of the justice is healing.
I think that if lawyers could actually embrace and see that part of what their gift into the world, or like one of my mentors says, we all have medicine to offer into the world, that part of their medicine to offer to the world is to look at this in a way that we could say that what I'm doing is part of a healing as opposed to sometimes it's exhausting because we're always about, it's the fight and the battle and what it does.
Yes.
But let's not forget about, I'm assuming there's probably some people on in the audience who want to win their case.
Exactly right.
How does this help you win your case?
Well, it goes to, and Rick Friedman talks about this a lot.
You know, the moral framework, the moral heart of your story.
Now something that you can say, and I recommend it when it makes sense for the case.
In closing or rebuttal, there was one question I never asked my client, ladies and gentlemen.
I never asked her what it feels like to be called a liar.
I never asked her that.
But I can imagine what it must feel like.
And with your verdict, you get to say that when you take away somebody's dignity, there's nothing in the verdict form that says you have to award a certain dollar amount for dignity taken.
The law doesn't recognize that there's nothing in the verdict form that you're going to see.
But you also get to say with your verdict that it ain't cheap.
That's part of the moral core.
That's part of that moral healing strategy that I want to help make this person whole and let her know with my message that we hear you, we've listened to you and we understand what you're trying to hide from the rest of the world.
We understand what that looks like.
We hear it and we recognize it.
And the only thing that we got to work with is this.
Here's how we get to say, don't stop grabbing that walker.
Right.
And that's with the verdict itself.
And we know that there's power in your work in so many different ways, including that.
I know that there are a lot of lawyers that work with you that have, because of that, have gone on to have the biggest verdicts in their career.
So there definitely is power in looking at not just on a personal level of the victor story, but in the way that you are doing it so uniquely, so nice.
And I'm sure you've experienced this, Lexly, that almost 15 years later you get to say, I get to finally back up the stuff that I was afraid that nobody else would be.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
This has been fascinating.
And we always close out our episodes asking some key questions.
And so we just want to get your thoughts real quick on answering the questions that we close out with.
So the first one is what's something that you're really excited about creating right.
Now, aside from this great conversation with Lex Lee Overton?
I'm really excited about working on my next book with trial guides.
It's the deeper dive into witness preparation, how to tell the winning story.
We don't have a title yet, but I will tell you what it's about.
Right.
A subject that I'm fascinated with and your listeners.
I want you to wrestle with this question.
What is the difference between talking about the suck and embracing the suck?
What is the difference between talking about the suck and embracing the suck?
What do I mean by the suck?
Well, the biases, which is usually you, but the tough kill shot, landmine issues, what's it?
Well, you know, Jesse, I talked about it.
Well, yeah, but did you embrace it?
What do you mean?
Well, they said that the jury said they're going to be fair and impartial.
So I figured that was enough.
Really?
Just because the jurors said they're going to be fair and impartial, you really mean that they're going to be fair and impartial?
Well, that's what they said.
That's talking about the suck.
How are you going to create the suck?
And so one of the things that I'm not the first to talk about opening statement in jury selection.
So the folks focus is opening statement and jury selection.
But it's really taking that concept and what does that look like and making different decisions when it comes to storytelling, different decisions and choices that you can make in your connections with jurors and.
But what it ultimately the book does is answers the question.
Okay, Jesse, I get the victim to Victor thing and casting the witness in the right role and helping maximize your damages in witness preparation.
How to tell the winning story.
What does that look like an opening statement?
What does that look like in jury selection?
The book answers that question.
I can't wait, Jesse.
Just because other people, and there's been lots of books written about opening statement in water and jury selection and all the things.
You have such a unique talent in wisdom and medicine and I can't wait to see.
Okay, so our second question is we are always talking about the ways that we can practice law differently, the ways that we can break the rules that might keep us not thinking outside the box.
So what if you could tell there's one rule that you would tell lawyers to break.
What would it be?
One rule that I would tell lawyers to break.
That is a damn good question.
I would break your old idea of the winning story.
Exactly.
Yes.
I would chuck that window right out the window and start casting your witness and you in the right role.
Beautiful.
Love it.
And the final question, what is one practice that has helped you to be a better, happier person?
Great question.
Aside from being a dad, right.
Maybe that's it.
Maybe that's the answer.
But what really helps me is actually what I teach.
And it's.
I use these steps I think you have probably experienced.
I think we collaborated on these steps back, way back when.
But these are the four steps of the stage that I teach when it comes to helping witnesses step into their role and be able to present in the story of strength.
And it's the four steps I use in opening statement.
It's the four steps I use in jury selection.
And it also has to do with working on you and getting yourself to make that shift from old story into news story.
And those four steps, I try to practice them as often as possible.
Step one, who are you talking to?
Step two, what do you want?
Remember this?
Step three, what gets in the way of what you want.
And step four, what changes?
And then I allow myself, I'm not a religious guy, but I am a spiritual guy.
I allow myself to roll reverse with what I imagine my source, my higher power.
Call it what you will.
The conversation that he or she source is having with Jesse.
What is source one from Jesse?
Who am I talking to?
I'm talking to Jesse.
Let's just call it God.
What does God want?
I want Jesse to remember who he is, what gets in the way of what you want.
Jesse's not remembering who he is.
Jesse's pushing me away.
Jesse's fighting.
Jesse's in ego.
Jesse's in fear.
Fear.
The obstacle, the sacred struggle.
Step four, what changes?
Jesse remembers, and he takes the next step.
I use that as a part of my daily meditation practice.
Yeah, and I bet part of that, the last question there is like, what happens?
You remember, and it may be what has to change for you to remember?
A different way of thinking, a different belief that you need to bring in a different lens on something that's so powerful.
Jesse.
And yes, we have, definitely.
And I've seen you teach those, and.
Then you take those four steps.
Sorry to interrupt.
You take those four steps and then, you know, for the lawyers listening, what does it have to do with the legal?
Well, imagine what happens when you put those four steps in the hands of the witness who is terrified.
Terrified of being judged and being seen by their listeners, the jurors.
Right.
When you change your relationship, you know, we're big Wayne Dyer fans.
I think you are.
I know I am, he said.
And I love it when you change the way you look at things, the things that you look at change.
Witness is able to change their relationship to their listener.
Not only does the conversation change, but they change.
The lawyers can do that, too.
Change relationship to your listeners, your jurors watch what happens, and we have the power to do that in our own lives.
How am I choosing to see the world?
Am I a victim or am I a victor?
Right.
I teach what I need to remember almost hopefully every single day.
Right?
I love it.
Very powerful.
Thank you, my friend, for being here.
My heart is full from listening to you and learning.
And just so that our listeners know, you want to know more all about Jesse and where he's going to be, because he teaches workshops, he hosts workshops.
And so there's so much more than just the book that he's written and what he's writing right now.
Check out tellthewinningstory.com dot.
Thank you.
Thank you.
