Welcome to the Mind over Law podcast, where we break the traditional rules of practicing law.
Our focus is helping you first to become a better, happier person, which in turn will make you a better, happier lawyer both in and out of the courtroom.
We will combine mindset and energy practices grounded in ancient wisdom with cutting-edge neuroscience to give you those skills.
Plus, I'll have deep conversations with some of the most thoughtful leaders that will share their life stories, their leadership journeys, and their legal practice wisdom.
I'm Lexlee Overton, and my promise is that each episode will offer practical insights and strategies to empower your law practice, your leadership skills, and most of all, your personal well being.
Join me, and I promise you'll become a better you, lawyer, and leader.
Welcome to today's Mind over Law podcast episode.
I'm really excited to have today's guest.
She is a longtime client and a really special friend, but more importantly, she is an outstanding leader in the legal community.
Her name is Jackie Ford.
Breaking some barriers in the legal world today, she's gonna share some inspiring stories and examples of how to challenge and redefine the traditional rules of practicing law.
Get ready to be inspired.
Oh, my gosh, Jackie, I'm so excited about having this conversation with you.
I just want to say thank you for being here.
I'm so excited to be here, too.
Anytime I can share and connect with you, Lexley makes my day brighter.
So thank you for having me.
Yes.
And just so our listeners know, Jackie and I have been working together in some capacity, probably now for almost a dozen years, huh?
Jackie, it's been a long time.
Yeah, it has been a long.
Yeah.
And we've worked in all different kind of capacities and have taught in different programs together, in a leadership program together, teaching in our upcoming women's leader workshop in January and New Orleans.
So I'm excited to talk with you because you have so much wisdom and the things that you have done in your career.
I really want to focus this in because we're talking about in this podcast, we really have this theme of breaking the traditional rules of practicing law.
And if there's anyone that has done that in a lot of different ways, that is you.
So when I say to you, let's talk about some of the ways that you think that you've broken some of the traditional rules of practicing law, what's like the first one that comes to mind?
I do it my way.
Yeah, I've been breaking rules since long before I was a lawyer in my DNA.
And I'm not shy about a lot of that.
But the breaking the rules for me is really about changing the conversation of what it means to be a lawyer, what it means to advocate, what it means to show up in your community and create a better environment, not just for yourself, but for everybody else that's kind of in this mess with us.
And so, you know, I think when you and I first met, I came to you experiencing some pretty significant burnout early on in my career and not knowing how I was going to stay in that state for a long period of time and how I was going to be able to serve my clients and serve myself.
And I don't think I was quite to the point of wanting to throw in the towel, but I was certainly not living a healthy, intentional lifestyle.
I was just running and gunning and burning the candle at both ends.
And I think for me, a lot of that was modeled by some of the older lawyers that I looked up to.
Yes, alcohol was a big part of the community.
You know, we're going out for happy hour drinks and brunch on Sundays, and always kind of surrounding myself with people suffering the same way I was suffering.
And so we just fed off of one another.
And I'm really, really grateful that I've made so many changes that that's not where I am anymore.
You know, I'm happier.
I think my team at my law firm is happier.
I know my family is happier.
And I was able to sustain this much longer and have another ten or 20 years to go, hopefully without killing myself or my spirit, you know?
And I'm remembering back to when you first started working with me and how I do remember how burned out and overwhelmed.
I think one of the things I remember is anger, right?
Like this, like, this frustration of like.
And really coming from this place of, like, it's so hard and it's so nasty sometimes in the adversarial nature of it.
And, of course, we've done lots of things where you have practices in your life, and we'll talk about that, that have really changed you.
But let's talk about that because I know we have done a lot of work together.
We've done a lot of work of prepping you for trial and big situations and looking at who you are and how you show up.
And it doesn't have to be in response to the aggressiveness that's coming from the other side and the power that you can retain when you do that.
Say a little bit about that because I think that's one of the most significant shifts I see in you.
And I know that other lawyers have reflected that to you, that have known you, talk about that shift in you.
They have.
People ask me sometimes, am I on drugs?
Am I drinking some magical sauce?
What is it?
And you know that I send a lot of those folks your way, because I think there is some magic sauce into what you teach and how we interact together, even though our practice of law is very different.
You know, I'm primarily a criminal defense lawyer.
My practice focuses heavily on violent cases, homicides, and sexual assault cases, defending folks that many people think shouldn't even share air with us, let alone space or community.
And I was angry a lot.
And I found that the adversarial nature of this business would be that my opposition would cast upon me these characteristics or beliefs that I'm standing up for the behavior, and they would make very personal attacks that I, at the time, took personally because I believe that an attack on my client was an attack on me.
And we don't have to spend a ton of time with my story, but I'm very open about the fact that my, you know, my dad was convicted of a felony when I was very young, and it had a traumatic lifetime impact on my sister and I.
And we were lucky because he wasn't taken away.
You know, he was given a probationary sentence, and I stayed within the family unit.
But the comments about the people I represented and the judgment of them really landed on me like it was in a personal attack on my dad or a personal attack on me, because I haven't always, like, had been a rule follower.
I've done some silly things.
And I was literally sitting at the prosecution table last week as someone was making a comment about somebody just being a convicted felon.
And I looked at that guy, and I said, you know, aren't most of us just sitting here unconvicted?
And a couple of people laughed.
And then he really took a beat, this da who was making fun of somebody in a courtroom with all kinds of folks, all facing felony charges.
And he said, you know, I've never really thought about it that way, but I am just one choice away.
I'm just one choice away.
And I can look back on my life and say, it would be very easy for me to see that myself on the other side of this table.
So how can I fight this day to day fight with people who think that my clients don't matter?
And if they don't matter, then I must not matter.
And if they're righteous and I'm unrighteous, then what does that mean about me?
And what was I doing?
And I just kind of went through this process with myself about why I was doing this work.
There are a lot of other ways to be a lawyer that don't include defending people alleged of domestic violence and homicide and rape and child molestation.
So why was this what I chose for myself?
And I really did get to take a deep dive into my why?
And it's because I wanted people to feel like they mattered and their children mattered, even though when my dad was going through it, I didn't feel like I mattered.
The choices that his lawyer made that impacted my sister and I today they impact us, right?
The quality of jobs that he was able to get, the level of poverty that we got to experience, the lack of vacations and quality time and community with family, because he carried a lot of shame around that.
And so I just wanted to do different, you know?
And I say I wanted to be the dad.
I wanted to be the lawyer that I wish my dad had had.
Because I think that we sometimes get, in a way, where we think about cases like grocery lists, you know, and I even say to my clients, this is your life, but it's my case.
Well, my case is their life.
And I want to make sure that when they leave my services, that they feel valued human, that they feel a level of connection for me.
And I try to pour hope into their lives because that's what I need.
And nobody was teaching me that.
You know, I was a young public defender for five years, and it's just battle, battle, battle, battle, fight, fight.
And as soon as you close one case, there are 15 more coming.
And it just feels like you're drowning sometimes.
Oftentimes felt like I was on the Titanic, and I just had myself a little teaspoon that I was trying to save the sinking ship.
And so learning to live on the Titanic was something that was really important to me because I didn't want to give it up.
I didn't want to change the fact that I believed that these people mattered.
So I decided to change the conversation about what it means to be a criminal defense lawyer and how I can show up in my community and how I can lead and not lose myself and attach my value to all of that.
Right.
There's so much that you said that we can unpack.
I want to.
Sorry.
No, it's wonderful.
I want to tune into a second.
When you said that, what is your why?
I think that's very important.
I think that we should always be examining and really know what the mission is of our lives.
Right.
This is the medicine that we offer into the world.
And it's beautiful that you've tied that into of knowing that you want to honor these clients and their family and know that they know that they matter.
And that helps you to get through a lot of the nonsense.
Right.
That is in the way.
And that helps all of us when we're in, if we understand what our why is and really tie into it, we can get up and do the things that are hard to do because we're pulled by that.
That's number one.
But second, I want to talk about that because that's your why.
How does that help you to handle losing?
And you and I have talked about this a lot, especially with criminal defense lawyers.
You're more likely going to be losing than you are winning.
And there is so much that we don't talk about that in this practice because it's all about the unwritten rule of winning.
And if you don't win, you're not a good lawyer.
You're just, you're not good enough.
Right.
And that is just so false.
No, I want to break that rule.
I want to break that belief.
Talk about how you've changed from looking at that you have to win and understanding how you handle the loss by the way that you put the lens on it now.
Sure.
So I define winning differently.
Yes.
And one of the things I teach young lawyers especially, is that in the criminal defense world, you oftentimes hear the phrase the system is broken.
And when I would push back on that and say, the system, in fact, is not broken, it is working exactly as it was established and set up to work, the system is broken.
The system is rigged.
And so once you establish that the system is rigged, and there's very few people that I think would have a meaningful debate about that, even people who are gaining the benefit of the rigged system, we all understand that the cards are stacked against us and we start from way behind the starting point.
And so if I were an Olympic track runner and I started a lap behind everybody else, would I hold myself to the standard of beating the person who was at the front of the line, who started a lap ahead of me and my failure to do that, would that then define me as not Olympic quality runner?
And the answer is absolutely nothing.
I am playing in a rigged system, on a rigged board.
And how I define winning now is whether or not I'm meeting my core values and my mission into the world at the end of whether it be a trial or a sentencing or whatever it might be, I know in my heart, even if it goes south, that my client is going to turn to me, wrap me up in a hug, and tell me, thank you.
And I know that because that's what they do.
I had two cases in the last five years where I am certain that the system incarcerated an innocent person, not a person who the state failed to prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, like a factually innocent person.
This crime did not happen.
He did not commit it.
And one of them is a she.
And at the end of each one of those trials where the jury compromised, found us guilty, and gave us a nominal sentence, the client turned to me and was taking care of me and my emotional state and wanting to make sure that I didn't give up because what I had done for them was so important that it was going to carry them through what was to come.
And they knew I was going to take it personal, because I take my relationships with my clients personally.
I get to know their families.
I get to know what's important to them.
We talk about hopes and dreams, we talk about fears and obstacles, and we just get to know each other.
And so when they're turning to me after the rigged system failed them and saying, you did fantastic.
Thank you so much for sharing my story.
I know you did everything you could possibly do.
If I allow myself to take that in, even though I'm hurt, even though I'm angry at the judge or angry at the prosecutor or frustrated with my jurors, if I can believe them, then I know that what I actually did was win.
Right?
Because if you believed the allegations on either one of these two cases, I think about neither one of those people would ever get out of prison.
So one of them is out now, and the other one will be out around my birthday next year in January.
And so they're going to have a life.
And my work with you, Lexley, has really allowed me to really embrace the idea that their journey is theirs, and it is not for me to decide.
So I can detach myself from the outcome of the case without detaching myself from the value of their life.
And this is their life.
And my life's mission is to give them worthiness, make sure their story matters, make sure that the truth is told.
And whatever happens as a result of that really is not within my power.
And that was really hard for me to let go of.
And I think that's kind of what you're talking about: this idea of winning. Are you powerful enough to win?
I mean, if we won all of the cases, the criminal justice system would not be so flawed, right?
We're not meant to win them all.
But if we define the win differently, if we lean into the emotional journey that these folks have gone on and how our love, our compassion, our empathy, and our advocacy can pour into them, then that's a win, even if the rigged system fails us.
And that is the only way that I'm able to get through this.
Otherwise, I would have quit like a hundred times because that's what the old story told me.
The old story would have me flopping around on the floor screaming about the unfairness and how I'm not good enough and that I'm an imposter and that I'm, you know, I'm a fraud and that any other lawyer could have done it better.
And I was really, really beating myself up.
And never did I ever say any of those hateful things to any of my friends who also sometimes lost cases they should have won.
Right.
I really learned that the way I talk to myself is important.
And whether or not the stories I'm telling myself are true and in line with who I want to be is what changed me from hating the system, hating my job, hating the other side.
I just can't carry that around.
Like life is too long and short to be carrying that kind of energy.
So freeing myself of that just allows me to be the lawyer I want to be and allows me to be the leader that I want to be without fear of judgment, because they're going to judge.
And, like, I can't control that.
So, the only true judgment that matters for me is my own and that of my clients.
Right.
And I think that's what's so important when we think about this idea of winning or losing.
It's like when.
When lawyers are really caught in that, I have to say, it's like you need to ask yourself, did you show up and do all that you could?
Did you do as the best that you could in the moment?
And usually, the answer is yes, they did.
Right?
And it's the system, it's the circumstances, it's the journey.
Whatever the reason is, the only thing you can control is what you step into that you say yes to.
And did you show up and do the best that you could?
And as you can answer yes to that, then you can maybe ask the question, what might have been the other purpose that I was here for this client, other than an actual win on the verdict form, however that comes across whether it's a, you know, a civil case or a criminal case.
That's right.
And oftentimes what people say is that my purpose here was that I listened to them and I heard them in a way that nobody else did.
I honored them.
Right.
And that's what you're saying.
What your why comes in.
So as long as you're stepping in to integrity of what your why is, then it always is a win.
That's right.
And understanding that.
So getting out of this traditional way of, you know, when I was as a young lawyer, it was, it's like, you know, did you get the verdict or not?
Right.
But then what was it and how much, you know, kind of thing.
And that was the only thing that mattered.
And so breaking that and really looking at what is the real reason why you're here?
Why are you in this work?
That's.
That's really awesome, Jackie.
So that's definitely a different way of practicing law and showing up.
Now, when we started our work together and you talked about this being, feeling really overwhelmed and burned out in some ways, you weren't totally throwing in the towel.
And now I look at you, and not only do you still have a full, thriving practice, but you have stepped in and said yes to challenges that most people would be like, how do you have the energy to do that?
And you're a leader in a lot of different ways.
Talk a little bit about what you're doing.
That is an extension of just showing up and practicing as a criminal defense lawyer.
That's still a part of your why.
And how do you have the energy to do that?
So the million-dollar question is, how do I have the energy?
I just intend to do my best in all of these roles.
And what I'm learning now, because I'm a constant work in progress, is learning to say no to the things that don't meet the actual goal.
And right now in this stage in my career, I'm very much leaning into teaching and mentorship.
I spend a lot of volunteer time.
I mean, I'm all over the state of Oklahoma doing lunch cles for, you know, county bars or teaching for the bar association.
I am also proudly this in my second term as president of the Oklahoma Criminal Defense Lawyers association.
And that's a statewide organization that represents criminal defense lawyers in both private practice and the public defense sector.
And I've been a member of this organization since my practice began in 2006.
And so I've joined the board probably a little shy of two years ago, ten years ago.
So maybe around there and I just saw that we're in a transition stage where I think I see that a lot in our community.
You know, there's a lot of changing in the conversation around criminal justice reform and changing in the way we treat offenders who are returning back into the community.
And being part of that change was really important to me, as I'm somewhere now between the baby lawyer and the old guard.
I think we have to set up an organization that inspires the younger generation, gives them the tools that they need so they don't have to go through the emotional turmoil that me and my colleagues so often went through in the early stages of our career and setting them up for success and teaching them balance.
I met some resistance from the, you know, the older generation that thought what I was trying to bring to the table was a little too woo woo or a little too touchy feely, as they like to say.
But I think it's really important because it saved my life.
And the teaching and mentorship allow me to go to sleep lighter at night.
You know, part of my overwhelm was I would just stay up and replay arguments or motion hearings or conversations in my head where I wish I would have said this or I wish I would have said that, or I'm dreading about the thing that's coming.
And so either I've got regret or fear kind of dominating my rest and my martyr syndrome that was very much alive and well, where I kind of believed back then that you did have to, just short of kill yourself.
I'm not trying to make light of.
I don't mean suicidal.
I mean burning it at both ends, that you have to give every part of yourself to this job, or you're not giving enough.
That was a story that I believed.
And once I learned that that, in fact, wasn't true because the community would suffer greater if I had a heart attack or stroked out or something or quit, then I had to figure out a way to make sure that other lawyers weren't feeling the same.
I train male lawyers and female lawyers, but I'm very much into being a woman mentor to other women lawyers who have some of the same pressures.
And I know the stories they tell themselves are oftentimes the same.
So the teaching and the mentorship allow me to go to sleep lighter because I no longer have to believe that this cross that I'm bearing is mine and mine alone and that it's going to cripple me to carry it.
Now, I believe that through the teaching and mentorship, that that burden is being carried by so many that I can trust that even if I come to a point in my career where I want to step back, that the community has the tools it needs, that there's going to be another person ready to step onto this path.
And I just want to pave that path for young folks because there just wasn't a lot of that for me, especially from strong female leaders.
And, you know, we're graduating more than 50% of most law schools across the country.
Our public defense system is very full of women lawyers, and many of the women who are listening to this now are in their girl attorney groups that are nationwide, and we're supporting each other, and I don't think we always had that.
And so it gives me great pride to be part of the teaching and shepherding and mentoring and to not do to themselves what.
What I did.
But I am.
That is oftentimes called to go take on a fight that nobody else wants to take on.
Right.
Let's talk about these communities and their connection.
It's one of the reasons why, you know, we have the leadership community that we have with women lawyers is because it's one of my core values is that we need.
Because when I started practicing and 30 years ago, I definitely did not have that around me.
Right.
It was all men and looking at creating places where we can connect and support one another.
But that brings me into, Jackie, all the things that you're talking about I know tie into, because you've gotten very intentional about what your core values are.
So I know that connection.
I know that teaching.
I know learning all the parts of your core values, and that's something that you've been developing.
Give us a little bit more, like, what are some other core values that you're.
Because I know that those are the things that you're actually using to say yes or no to these other things.
Is this an alignment with who I want to show up and be and the impact that I want to have in the world?
So give us just, like, can you name off the core values for you?
Courage.
Love it.
Compassion, clarity, honor.
And hope is what I'm really holding on to right now this year, leaning into hope, because hope for me is very joyful.
You know, I've got teenage boys at home, and they're going through some growing pains of their own.
One of the things that we're talking about a lot is what it means to be courageous.
And I believe that you cannot have courage without having fear.
Right.
And so my relationship with fear is very different now than it was, you know, 1015 years ago, certainly different than it was when I was their age.
But learning to embrace fear and to lean into it.
If I'm being called to do something and my gut reaction is, no way, that is terrifying, then that's clue number one that I need to listen to.
Why?
What am I terrified about?
And is the terror real?
And would the terror subside with a little courage, you know?
Yeah, we, I practice in the largest metropolitan area in Oklahoma.
And our county, where I spend most of my time, had 16 years under the same leadership.
And that prosecutor was retiring.
So we have elected officials in the DA's office.
And we had been searching for years to find somebody who was going to run so that we could change the energy and the vibe and just the misery that was to practice in Oklahoma County, because I think that trickles down from the top.
Right, right.
And I think anybody in that position for 16 years has been in it too long.
This isn't a comment on that person but the role.
And one of my very good friends had lost her battle with cancer.
We were sitting outside on the patio of this, you know, german restaurant and all of us after her funeral, and there probably were 25 of my core group of defense lawyer friends.
And I was really harassing a number of them about why they were not going to run.
And their excuses were, well, I don't want to give up the financial security, you know, oh, I've got too much baggage.
Oh, that doesn't.
I don't want to send people to prison.
And so I'm frustrated with them.
I'm frustrated with us collectively because of the, is there any other excuse other than it's too hard and I might not make as much money.
And so I'm really kind of giving them a hard time.
And one of my girlfriends turns and looks at me and says, well, Ford, you know, what's your excuse?
And never did I ever imagine anybody would be asking me to run for that position.
And I think she was kind of jacking with me, but I really had to take a look at why not me?
And I didn't just jump into a yes, we explored that and looked at what that might look like and the sacrifices that we were going to have to make.
And I talked to a lot of people about what the goal would be.
And there was a part of me that my martyr is speaking to me.
If not you, then who?
If not now, then when?
And nobody else is going to do it, Jackie.
So you have to save yourself.
You have to save the community and sacrifice yourself.
And I really wrestled with that because, as you know, I mean, that's.
That's my old story that I have to sacrifice myself for the betterment of others.
But we ultimately landed on the decision that I was going to run.
And.
And I know that when.
Because you and I had a lot of discussions about that, you really looked at, is it an alignment with my mission in life and is it in alignment with my values.
And, heck, it was one of the most courageous things that I've ever seen you do.
It was terrifying.
Yeah.
And even though, you know.
And so this is another thing to look at.
So you went through.
It was a hard fight, and even though you didn't win, you still won.
Oh, I still won.
I think it's so important, these challenges, that we could class it, we could put a story on it that says, oh, that it just was terrible and a waste of time and all the things, but it wasn't, because going through it, number one, stepping in was a huge growth for you.
You know, I mean, like, you grew even more.
You pushed yourself outside your comfort limits, for sure, out of your comfort zone.
But just give us two sentences explaining why that was a win.
Because the office in which I was fighting to displace has been displaced.
And the universe always giving me what I need, it wasn't me that had to do it, but I got to be part of that conversation.
And I believe that my willingness inspired others to act, which is really what I wanted.
The other piece for me, on a personal level is it just completely changed my life.
I mean, we were in a time in this country when I ran, you know, where people were incredibly divided and divided on the issues, on all issues, but specifically on the issues that matter the most to me, which is the justice system and the quality of the judiciary and corruption and politics and abuse of power like these.
We can, you know, argue about the regular criminal stuff, but on the bigger scheme of the criminal world, it is a corrupt system.
And I was angry a lot.
I was angry with friends over the political positions they were taking or not taking.
I was constantly in battles on social media about politics and felt like all of the conversations that I was having prior to running were just really heated and negative.
I started isolating myself from certain groups of people because I would just get so frustrated going through this process and knocking on tens of thousands of doors and meeting people from all over Oklahoma county, all different ages, all different walks of life, everybody with different beliefs of what the most important thing going on in our world is really just opened my eyes to where my judgment was standing in the way of me connecting family and friends and the community.
And it really showed me that I needed to offer more grace and patience and compassion, even with people who 100% disagree with the way the world should be, whichever side of that line you fall on.
And it freed me of that.
It freed me of the anger.
It freed me of the division.
It allowed me to recreate who I wanted to be.
It made my relationship healthier.
My kids knocked on doors with us and put out signs.
We campaigned every day for a year.
We learned a lot about each other, but we learned a lot more about the community, you know, and we could focus on the negative parts of being a political candidate, but I don't think that serves anybody.
That just is going to make somebody more afraid.
Right.
What we did, the courageousness that not.
It wasn't just me.
It really was.
Everybody around me had to commit to that.
It was going to be the end of my firm.
You know, people were going to have to pick up the pieces.
My family was going to have to deal with a significant financial change.
There was a lot of people that bought in to me doing that before I said yes.
And it was the greatest gift.
It took me a while.
Of course, it was painful.
Nobody likes to be at a watch party with the press, watching you lose your tail.
It's the world's biggest bore.
Dyer and verdict from the community.
But once I got past the ego part of that, I couldn't be happier.
And it paved the way for so many other candidates to step into other races that mattered.
I can't believe you did that.
And then I could mentor them on how to do it.
Use this printer.
Don't use this printer.
This is how I would do mail.
This is how I would knock doors and got to then create change for other people who are in phenomenal roles that they would not have been in, but for me, dragging them through that.
Right.
So, courage, and then remembering that everything that we do impacts others.
Everything.
So that's how that created that for other people.
And then coming back into that, it taught you compassion, which is one of your core values, which I think is something that would be so amazing if we got out of the traditional way of practicing law and thinking about the when.
And what if we just compassionately stepped into one another and said, okay, we are divided in this case, right.
We have a different view of what should happen here.
What if we brought more compassion to that?
That could help bring in and what's better for the whole, as opposed to what's better for me.
Right.
That a beautiful way of looking at it.
Awesome.
Jackie.
Well, we're going to wrap up with the three questions that we were asking all of our guests.
The first is, what are you excited about creating in your life right now?
Just a sentence or two.
I'm really excited about creating new spaces to be creative.
We're going through a big process at our house called the gentle art of swedish death cleaning.
We're decluttering.
It's a great show on peacock.
Decluttering and creating new spaces to grow into the next chapter.
So that's a lot of fun.
We've redone both the boys rooms.
My room's going to come next, and then we've got some living spaces.
So being able to think about the home and how we spend time there and how we want to feel there and doing it as a unit has been a lot of fun for me.
I think the kids are enjoying it, too.
They got the first benefits because I'm smart like that.
What fun.
The other thing I think that I'm really looking forward to is what the next chapter of Jackie Ford Law looks like.
You know, we're.
We're growing.
We've got some incredible processes in place.
I'm fantasizing about maybe adding some new folks to the team, but I'm also really excited that I've really started converging out now.
And I'm doing some consulting work and being able to help other people prepare their cases where I don't have to carry the years of weight to get it to trial, we can just step in and offer the kindness, compassion, and courageous to witnesses and clients and lawyers to be able to do good stuff.
Love it.
Second question.
We've been talking about breaking all these rules.
If you could give us one that you think is the most important, and it may be one that we've already discussed, but breaking the traditional way of practicing law, what would be the one rule that's been the most important for you?
Man, I think the most important for me, really, is changing the conversation.
And it's multifaceted, and I think it begins with changing the conversation you have with yourself about why you're doing this and what you intend to put into the world and changing the conversation with you have with adversaries, clients, and the finders of fact.
And for me, that was all about learning a new relationship with fear and courageous.
Yeah, because nobody wants to be a scaredy cat.
Everybody wants to be brave and courageous.
But in order to do that, we must first stand up and work through the fear.
We can't eliminate it.
That's a lie.
It's dangerous to our health.
So how do we change our relationship with fear so that we can be courageous and brave and be the hero?
Yeah.
Because, you know, the traditional way of looking at it in the practice of law would be.
I'm not ever even going to say I'm afraid because I don't want anybody to know.
Right.
So actually recognizing that it is here and there is a different way and a different way to have a relationship with it, I think is a really powerful rule breaker there.
That's awesome.
Well, and for the lawyers who are trying cases, that's the key point you want in your trials, too.
You find that fear and you run straight towards it.
Yes.
Money is.
That's where the change is.
That's right.
I last question.
One practice that you do that makes you a better, happier human gratitude.
Yeah.
Yes.
I've been thinking about, you know, I don't love that we have all these signs with words on them all the time.
I'm like, have some symbology about things, but I've been thinking long and hard about getting a big gratitude changes attitude for the, the boy's wing of my house.
Oh, yeah.
I don't have to say it all the time, but it truly does.
Anytime I'm running into a negative thought process or going through a cycle of telling myself ugly things about myself or somebody else, if I can just take that cue and say, take a minute and breathe and shift it, I can shift with gratitude.
And, you know, we talk about this in our leadership group.
Sometimes the best thing on my list is the hot cup of coffee that morning.
Maybe that's the only thing I can find to be grateful for.
But boy, golly, am I grateful for that hot cup of coffee.
And some days it's much bigger, you know?
And so gratitude is part of my practice.
It's a part of my kid's practice and my family.
And I just, I believe that gratitude changes attitude and we have the power cost us nothing.
I think gratitude changes everything about the story of your life, which changes the experience.
That's right.
Beautiful.
Thank you so much for being here.
It's been amazing.
Always have a great time with you.
Lexley.
Thanks for having me.
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