Welcome to the Mind Over Law podcast where we break the traditional rules of practicing law. Our focus is helping you first to become a better, happier person, which in turn will make you a better, happier lawyer both in and out of the courtroom. We will combine mindset and energy practices grounded in ancient wisdom along with cutting edge neuroscience give you those skills.
Plus, I'll have deep conversations with some of the most thoughtful leaders that will share their life stories, their leadership journeys, and their legal practice wisdom. I'm Lexlee Overton and my promise is that each episode will offer practical insights and strategies to empower your law practice, your leadership skills, and most of all, your personal well being. Join me and I promise you'll become a better you lawyer and leader.
Welcome. In today's Mind Over Law podcast, we have a very special guest, Megan Hargreider Graham. She is a legal marketing expert with 13 years of experience helping solo and small firms take their online presence to the next level.
She is the CEO of Legends Marketing and she is a powerhouse of wisdom when it comes to digital marketing. So excited to dive in with her today. Oh my goodness, Megan, I am so excited to have you here today.
We always have so much fun together.
Yes. Thank you for having me.
All right, so normally we end each episode with a guest with three questions, but I want to start out with one of those questions with you because it's going to be built into, I know the wisdom that you can offer all of our listeners. And that question is what is one rule that you would tell lawyers that they should break and the way that they normally practice law or show up?
I would say the rule to break. And I don't know if this is a rule or a practice, but a lot of lawyers are hyper focused on impressing people, not just potential clients, but each other. Honestly, there's like a lot of lawyers just trying to impress each other, which results in a lot of genericness across the board in their marketing, which results in non effectiveness.
So, so the rule I would say to break would be to stop focusing on impressing and start focusing on connecting, especially through the use of your messaging.
That is such great advice. But not just in their marketing, right? When you say that lawyers are often trying to impress each other, one of the things I know, as you know, a lawyer for almost 30 years is there's a lot of times of like we have to put on this front and we can't, you know, can't let them see our fear and we've got to take this stance.
And really what I know is that's one of the reasons why we struggle so much in this profession is not having the permission just to be, to show up and be authentic and to really remove all the masks that we wear. That would be one of the things I would say as a practice or a rule that we should break. So for our listeners to know, I did get did a little bit of an intro about you, but you've been in this business, in the world of lawyers and marketing and branding for a very long time.
I think 13 years now.
Yeah. So when you talk about that there's a lot of generic across the board. When we are worried about impressing, talk a little bit more about how that shows up.
Yeah, so we can talk about how that shows up in more like networking level events like you mentioned. Because I think it's kind of starts there and it starts with the either in person or. When I say in person I also mean zoom in on the phone because that's basically in person now.
So there's basically a Persona that lawyers try to put on based on how they think they're supposed to be as a lawyer. And that doesn't foster connection, it doesn't make potential clients feel like they're connected to you, like they can trust you, like they know anything about you. And that bleeds into the online space.
So that's sort of how you are in life also is manifesting on your website. And so most lawyer websites that you see will look like just any other lawyer website you will see because people are so afraid to step outside of the box and they're so afraid to get personal. And so their biographies, for example, which is the second most visited page on your website after your homepage.
If you don't think this is true, I promise it is. Go to your Google Analytics, look at your top pages. The first page will be your homepage and the second page will be your biography.
People want to know about the person, so they're going to go to the biography or the about page because they're looking for how are they going to connect with this person. Right.
Every time. And that's why the solo movement so huge people want to hire a person, not a firm with no face behind it. So small firms are just in this really unique position right now.
They're just not leveraging it in most cases as well as they could. And so their biography pages, you go there and they read like a professional obituary. It's just a list of where you went to school and what awards you won.
And like the awards mat like the accreditations, they do matter, but they're not a story. And they don't belong in like the paragraph section of your biography because that doesn't make people want to hire you. You know, you need to tell them something that they can connect to.
And in most cases, what we've discovered through doing these deep dive interviews with lawyers, which they say they hate it, but they really like it by the end. Where we get really personal is we find out that in almost all cases, these lawyers have this reason that they're doing what they're doing and this reason that they're helping the people that they're helping. And it could come from a personal story in their past.
It could come from like a really impactful case that they worked on. And then they were like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I want to specialize in this.
And so it might be your story, it might be an impactful story about a client you helped. But either which way, there's always a way to connect with who's reading that story. And that's what's going to make them want to hire you, because that's what's going to make them trust you.
So there's such a huge opportunity for people to really think through, like, what is your story? And just as important as your homepage is your biography on your website. Because that is you saying you're putting that out to the world.
Who am I? And it's a very powerful experience. I went through it with someone a few years ago.
I don't believe you can write your own biography. I really don't. Unless you're a narcissist.
I'm a writer. I tried to write mine. It was very, very bad.
So I worked with two different copywriters to put mine together because I also was like, I don't know what my story is. You know, like, you have to go through a pretty intense discovery process. So when I first, like, read my story, it was very empowering for me.
And it felt, and it continues to be something that people read and connect with and call me and they're like, they'll reference something in my biography and say that that made them feel comfortable talking to me or like we had something in common.
Right. You know, this is really a lot to think through here. And the first thing I want to say is, is when you were talking about that, it reads like, normally it reads like a professional obituary because it's all about what you've done.
And what we know is, is that people don't connect with us. Because of what we do, there are a lot of lawyers. Right.
We can be separate based upon the type of law we practice. Right. It could be criminal laws is what I do, or personal injury laws, what I do, or family law is what I do.
But people don't connect with us because of what we do. They connect with us because of why we do it. And Simon Sinek said that and has amazing TED Talk.
And if y'all haven't seen that, you should go Google it and look it up. I'll put it in the show notes. But it's really powerful.
And that's true about leaders. I've said this many times that I think we're leaders in any role that we have, whether it's as a lawyer, leading our clients, as I'm a leader, as a mother for my children or for my, you know, siblings. Right.
Every role that we have. And as a leader, the reason people really fall in and really get committed and connect. So as a leader of my team is because of why we do it.
So this is what you're talking about when the story is a deep dive. It's when you say in your story, it's like, what. What's the reason?
What's your mission here? What's the reason you do what? You do the why behind it, Right?
Yeah. And, you know, initially, when you ask people that question, they'll give you a really generic response to the why. Or they'll be like, you know, I kind of just picked.
You really have to go deep with people to discover what that why is. And sometimes it's. Yeah, sometimes it's 45 minutes into the conversation, people have that light bulb moment where they're like, okay, one time this thing happened.
Or so my favorite is when people say, look, I don't want this in my bio, but this. This is a very personal thing that happened with my family when I was growing up, and this inspired me to want to help other famil. And then it's just a matter of convincing people to allow that vulnerability to be public on their website.
And no one feels comfortable with that at first, especially lawyers, because you have this wall that is your professional Persona, and that is the wall that they taught you to put up in law school so that you are seen as professional. And that is the wall. You know, you think that your peers can't judge you behind it, and so you keep that up.
And on the backside of that wall, if you let it drop, is vulnerability. And vulnerability is what is going to let you connect with people. And that is how they're going to remember you.
That's how they're going to hire you. That's how they're going to refer you. No one's looking to be impressed.
They really aren't. In general, like, in life and in business, people are not trying to be like, we're trying to impress each other constantly, all the time.
I know.
I. I'm like, let me show you how smart I am. Let me show you what I know.
I'm so much fun to be around.
Look.
But, like, that is not what anyone else wants. People want to feel comfortable and they want to feel heard and they want to feel taken care of. So in that vein, just like your biography should be, you know, your story, it should be something that is vulnerable, that people can connect with.
On the flip side of that is your homepage of your website, which is where the land, when they get there. And that should be their story. The client should read your homepage and say, this is me and this is what I need.
We use the Carl Jung's Hero Journey a lot in our copywriting, where, you know, you as the lawyer are not the hero. Your client is the hero. They are the key character in the story.
And you are Yoda. You are the guide that is helping them through this problematic point in their life to get them to the other side of what they're desiring. It's a really fun process to go through.
I highly recommend for all, especially solos, if you haven't gone through the process of, like, trying out the storybrand copywriting method. There's a website called Clarify youy message. It's just clarifyyourmessage.com.
i think that's what it still is.
We'll make sure to link it. We'll link it. Yeah.
It's either that or mystorybrand.com, but either which way, we'll put the link in there. It's a free template that you can go online and there's little videos that even will tell you, like, here's how you map out this part, this part, this part. You create this framework and then you use that to build the copy of your website.
And it's this tried and true formula that not just law firms, but tons of businesses use. Once you, like, map it all out, you'll be like, oh, yeah, this actually makes sense. And you'll start seeing brands and businesses and people who are using this format online effectively.
And you'll start recognizing, you know, what is effective and how to apply it to what you're doing so that you're not just doing what everyone else is doing, which is typically not very effective.
Yeah. And you know, back up for a second on the story part about, you know, the bio, the lawyer's bio. We had Jackie Ford as a guest recently on the podcast, and she actually mentioned this as part of her story.
And I know it's in her bio. And she talked about her passion and her why and her mission, which is to be the lawyer that her father didn't have and that her father had been, you know, charged with a felony and what that impact was on the children, et cetera. And I know you guys worked with Jackie and wrote her story.
It's a pretty powerful story on her website. Right. And it's probably something at first she wasn't sure that she wanted to put out there.
That's that thing of like, well, I'm not sure I want to put this in my bio. But it's actually, it's the reason she does what she does. Right.
It's why she gets out of bed in the morning. It's the thing that gets you going, you know, when you dive into that, that's, you know, so not only does it connect her to the energy that she needs to remember why she's doing what she's doing, but that makes it more about the client being able to connect into why she does what she does.
Yeah. And Jackie, when you're talking to her, is such a powerful storyteller. We've been working with her for years.
So we've gotten so many stories from Jackie and it's always riveting.
Right.
You're always just like, this should be an episode of something. When we first started working with Jackie, she wasn't comfortable sharing this much. We had a very watered down version of it.
And then the last iteration of her site we did, we went back in and she was, I think, because she had seen, you know, though even the watered down version, like the hit points on that really resonated with people and they told her that that was why, so she was ready to go deeper. So, yes, she. Her dad had a felony conviction.
It completely derailed her entire family. So she talked about that. She also, which I thought was really brave, shared that she had her own addiction problems that she battled and what it was like to overcome that.
Because in her case, a lot of her clients are not just dealing with criminal charges, they are dealing with addiction. And it is part of her mission to whoever she's helping. She's not just legally helping them.
She Wants them in treatment. Right. She wants to help people very much.
A whole holistic approach to practicing law, which I think is actually beautiful medicine into the world. Right. It's not just about, are we going to get you off of this or not?
It's like, I want to put you on a better path.
Yeah, yeah. And she's. Yeah.
I mean, she's doing the work and it's clear that she is more than just a lawyer. When she starts to work with someone, she really becomes that guide. Right.
And that is what people are looking for. People don't hire a lawyer because they know exactly how lawyers work or how the legal system works. They have no idea that's why they're hiring, hiring a lawyer.
But often people need a little bit more than whatever the scope of the law practice is. And for those lawyers, which are typically going to be your solo practice owners who are willing to give a little bit more, like, put that out there, because that is actually what people are looking for is like someone to help them solve this problem, which sometimes goes a little beyond whatever that legal scope is.
Right. So back to when you're talking about the homepage, and I love that it's based upon the hero's journey. I think that, you know, I've used that and taught even that methodology and telling the client's story in a courtroom to a jury and who becomes the hero there, which you can actually make that as the jury that becomes the hero.
So that's very powerful. And that to know that this again, which I think there's a lot of times, especially when people are trying to do it on their own, that they just miss that. The message is not about you as the law firm on the homepage.
The message is about the client. And you want everything that's there to speak to the client. That this is.
We understand who you are.
I love that comparison because it is exactly like lawyers know. Trial lawyers know how to tell a story in the courtroom. They know how to make it compelling.
They'll. But. And that same methodology can just as easily be applied to your marketing, your homepage, of your website, if you just open that door to it.
Like, this is something that you already know how to do as a trial lawyer, which is pretty cool to think about. It's not a skill you have to hone. You can hire someone to do it for you, but you don't have to.
Right. Because you already know who your client is. You know what they're struggling with, you know what they need, and you know what they're afraid of and what they want.
And so putting all of those things together, you can create a story that makes them feel comfortable and makes them feel like they can trust you, because that's what they're looking for. People are looking for a lawyer they can trust. I think a lot of lawyers forget that the profession in general is not trusted among the public.
A lot of bad press in general. So you have to say why you're different. You have to say that because otherwise you're going to get put into the same bucket as all of the really terrible lawyers that are known for taking advantage of people.
Yeah. So it goes back to, it's not about what you do. It's not about the fact that you're a lawyer.
It's about why you do it and really getting clear on that. Give us an idea. Like you.
I know that we could use that methodology to write the things on the homepage. I do agree with you. I think it's very hard to write the story of yourself.
And I mean, I, you know, actually have been through the process, you guys, I went through that process with y'all and you writing my story. You know, I do think that that's hard to do. What are some other things that your firm offers lawyers that is unique and the reason why they should search you out?
Well, our primary core offering is our website development that we do, which is atypical for website development because we don't just build a framework, we create brands. We do a deep dive discovery with people to figure out who they are and who their client is and where they're trying to go. Then we build the brand around it, then we build the story around it.
Then we build the website and we do the SEO components. Those happen later because everyone's always worried about SEO. And I'll say this, we do SEO, obviously.
But here's the thing about SEO. SEO is traffic. SEO is getting people to your website.
You can get people to a terrible website and they're not going to call you because the website didn't speak to them. So before you get worried about SEO at all, you need a website that makes people want to hire you, people.
Want to be connected to you.
Exactly. Because that's what makes people pick up the phone. So then you can send traffic there and then you'll get clients.
But the first step is the website. So we do the start to finish website builds, focused on branding, focused on story, and focused on building trust. So trust based marketing is at the core of what we do.
We offer SEO services just like everyone else, we mostly work with solos and small firms. But I will also say this about SEO. SEO is not something that any company can guarantee, so it shouldn't be the foundation of anyone's marketing goals.
Our clients are doing really well and we're very lucky. But Google just did an unprecedented number of algorithm changes this year and the SEO world is currently shook. There's a lot of mid sized to larger law firms that were ranking number one that have completely dropped off.
Even though their SEO companies are doing all of the things right, they're doing all the things they were doing before. At any point in time, Google can change the algorithm. So that can't be your only strategy.
The good news right now, as of the time that we're recording this, is that the algorithm shifts have been favorable towards solo small firm, small websites. So, you know, and I believe that they will continue to do so. But I also believe that Google isn't looking to promote generic content in general.
So the better your website is, and by better, I mean the more authentic and unique your website is, the better chance you have of continuing to rank in Google search. Because SEO is all about a series of tactics that anyone at any point could do, including your competitors. So at some point, you know, you could be neck and neck with someone and your uniqueness is what is going to set you above the rest.
So I think that that is really where things are going more so than anything else. More so than like the, the tried and true SEO tactics which just kind of like stopped working this year. It's, it's a whole new game out there.
I want to circle back to this term trust based marketing. And I know we've been talking about it. One of the ways you do that is through an authentic story, discovering the why, what else do you do?
Because like you said, lawyers are not trusted. So what else is something that you do to promote this trust based marketing?
So there's a lot of different things you can do depending on your practice area and where you're looking to go in terms of getting out there, but also building trust. For some people, email lists have been a huge way to do that. So for example, for an estate planning lawyer, estate planning is a long game.
A lot of times your target clients know they need to create an estate plan, but they don't really want to or they don't really feel like it. Right? They're just going to.
If you can capture their contact information and slowly drip out, an email campaign over the course of, honestly, a year is a solid timeline. For estate planning, because it really takes people a while. If you can have just like campaign dripping out to people over time, that's creating trust, building trust with you that you are, you know, you know what you're doing, giving them information and answering common questions that you know that they're going to have and giving them like little tidbits and resources, not too much at once, but just like little bits at a time.
They are going to trust you. They're also going to. When they think about estate planning, they're going to think about you.
You have already made yourself synonymous with estate planning. So that's one way. Email is really a good direct way to build relationships with people.
And then the other thing a lot of people are still not doing this is just allowing people to make direct appointments with you. Even if it's paid, it actually doesn't have to be free. We've seen just as much success with people doing, you know, 20 minute paid initial consultations.
But for someone to be able to book and know that they're going to talk to the lawyer, even if they have to pay to talk to the lawyer, that builds trust because again, when you have a growing firm, you have to have intake people. But intake people will never know what you know. They'll never be able to connect with your clients the way that you connect with them.
So having a way where people can actually speak with you, whether that is paid or free, depending on your practice area, that is going to build trust as well.
Mm. Yeah. Some really, really good tips here.
So I'm going to change directions a little bit on you because we've known each other for a long time and we're really, really good friends. At the same time, I think that some of the things you've done recently in your life would be really interesting to our listeners. So you took a year and traveled the world with your partner and still stayed the CEO of your company and hands on and all the things.
So tell us a little bit. If I said give us three tips that allow you to be out of the office, living life and not so tied to a desk, what would that be?
Okay, you say tips and I immediately think about platforms. So I'm going to try to mix in all of those. So my number one would be using Slack or I think Microsoft Teams works the same.
We use Slack, I use, I use.
Teamwork with my team. So some kind of platform that you can communicate easily.
Yeah. Wherever you are. Virtual office.
Right. So Slack is our virtual office and that we implemented before. I took my Trip.
But that became even more so. The virtual office space that allowed us to work asynchronously, communicate with our clients better, faster. Right.
We started putting our clients in Slack. So if they had a question, even if they were asking me that question, if it. It's the middle of the night in Europe, Colleen will see the question and she'll be able to hop in and answer it so I don't have to have someone checking my email when I'm not in the office.
It simplified things a lot. So I think Slack would be number.
One or some similar platform like that.
Yeah, yeah, some similar platform. Virtual meetings, of course, is something that, you know, everyone needs. What I did while I was traveling was previously if someone wanted to schedule an initial consultation, it was just with me whenever we were abroad.
And the time zone, really the overlap in hours was just like maybe three hours a day where I could take meetings. And that wasn't really going to be good for generating new business and having new business. I added Colleen as a backup so people could book with me, they could book with her, or they could book first available.
And I worked with her to be able to do those sales calls. I built a pitch deck and sort of removed myself as the only person who could sell the sales.
And I think, I think that's very good when you're, when you're building a team. We work with teams every day. And it is important that you're not the only one doing everything right.
And so sales is a real important space to be able to learn, to train people to be able to do that. So that you're cloning yourself, right? Yeah.
Beautiful.
I would say the third thing would be hiring technical virtual assistants. So we needed more help. I couldn't afford to hire a full time US based person to do that help.
So I found two specialists, one in copywriting and one in SEO, that are based in the Philippines. And there's a company you can go through. I can send you the link for that too, where they do the recruiting process for you.
All you do is put a job description together. They filter the top candidates, you can interview people and then you choose people from there. And we got really lucky.
We found two really amazing people right off the bat. And it's a really nice relationship because two people cost me less than one US based person. But the salaries that they're making are actually really good salaries for living in the Philippines.
Right. So it works out really well. And they are also not working US hours.
They are working their own hours, which I would I know a lot of virtual assistants in other countries. If you hire, they'll say we'll work us hours if you don't have to have them working us hours. If you can let people work their own hours remotely and have a more asynchronous office, you will always get better talent because you're not making people stay up in the middle of the night.
Right.
So typically we have one to two hours of overlap with our international team and that's plenty to touch base, you know, get things going. Other than that, if your systems and processes are good, your office should be able to run asynchronously.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, great.
And wow. And that's very, very important. Right.
The systems and processes so that everyone knows what is expected and how to do it. I mean that's a real key. We can't just slide over that.
That's true, that's true.
We spent a lot building out processes for teams and it's. It is something that is time consuming, but it is everything about how you.
Scale it is the best thing that I've ever done. And it was. It took an entire year for us to build out and systemize all of our processes.
And we also use teamwork for task management. It's amazing. But everything is in there.
And we use the spaces component of teamwork as a database. So we have a database that the whole team has access to. We have training materials.
Like everything is perfectly cataloged and linked and documented. And it's a daunting task to start though. It's.
You don't like it when you're halfway in. You want to but things through it.
And we just take it a piece at a time. But once they start to see. Once you start to put processes in a systemized way that also can be automated and workflows that can be created is so important especially in the representation of legal clients and all the things that you could forget.
Right. That are automated. It is so worth the time and the energy and it is everything about what's the next step on scaling.
So that is definitely not one to glide over. It does take time, but it's worth it. It's up front energy that then becomes amazing.
Yeah. You don't think about. I don't think about it anymore.
Like that's all I thought about for a year and agonized over and now I'm like, oh, things just work now, right?
Yes, yes. Okay, so let's get to our final two questions we asked you the first one. The next one is what is something that you're excited about creating in your life right now.
Now that you're back in the U.S. what's something that you're excited about?
Well, I just finished going through the yoga teacher training program.
Oh wow.
I am currently completing my non contact hours which involves I have to teach a bunch of classes and observe a bunch of classes and do all this stuff to get my final certification. So I'm really excited to finalize that, get my certification, start offering yoga at some of your upcoming retreats.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And you're going to be, you're going to be at our, our Women Leadership Summit in January and you're definitely going to be doing some yoga with us. They're super excited about that.
Yoga we're going to be doing story we're going to be doing literally a culmination of everything we just talked about.
Yeah. So we're going to have a really great exercises for people on story. So that's going to be amazing.
I'm really excited about it. Well, we obviously know that yoga is one of the things that's very important to you. So you have to answer this question with a different answer than yoga.
What's a practice that you do that helps you to be a healthier, happier person?
So a few months ago I started waking up every day at the same time at 6am and I have a process because otherwise I'll just lay on the sofa and take a nap if I don't immediately do a thing.
So we worked hard on this process with you.
Yes, we worked really hard for a long time. But I have finally created a habit out of it where I now I get up at 6, I get out of bed, I grab my headphones, I go straight outside to the porch, I put my headphones on and I listen to a guided meditation for at least 10 minutes. I'm trying to work my way up to 20.
Sometimes it's like 12 to 15. But I use the Insight Timer app. So I like pick different meditations every day, like whatever's calling to me, which I have.
I have some on the Insight Timer app.
I know I follow you on Insight Timer.
Yes, yes, we'll have to link that too. It's a really great app for meditation. What else do you do in the morning in your morning practice besides meditation?
So after meditation and this was the hardest thing to do, but now it feels so amazing is I go and I take a cold shower, like a really quick one, like maybe a minute or two and I am awake. I feel amazing. I feel energized.
I used to think only coffee could wake me up and I do still drink coffee but I make myself wait until after the shower to drink the coffee and then I use the coffee as the reward.
Yeah, awesome. That's really cool. Well thank you so much for being here Megan and giving us all the tidbits of wisdom and I can't wait to see you in January.
I know, me too. Thank you Lex.
You're welcome. Thanks for listening to today's episode of Mind Over Law. We hope that you're walking away inspired and ready to embrace your life and law practice in a more holistic, healthier, happier way.
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