Welcome to the Mind Over Law podcast, where we break the traditional rules of practicing law. Our focus is helping you first to become a better, happier person, which in turn will make you a better, happier lawyer both in and out of the courtroom. We will combine mindset and energy practices grounded in ancient wisdom along with cutting-edge neuroscience give you those skills.
Plus, I'll have deep conversations with some of the most thoughtful, thoughtful leaders that will share their life stories, their leadership journeys and their legal practice wisdom. I'm Lexlee Overton and my promise is that each episode will offer practical insights and strategies to empower your law practice, your leadership skills and most of all, your personal well-being. Join me and I promise you'll become a better you lawyer and leader.
Welcome to today's Mind Over Law podcast. I'm Lexlee Overton, and I'm really excited to have our expert guest today. Marilyn Jenkins is a seasoned digital growth strategist and she has helped numerous law firms to experience exponential growth, including multiple 7 figure revenues by helping them to craft strategic marketing plans that really specialize in everything from paid advertising to SEO to Google business profile optimization.
Anything that can help drive your firm towards growth, you're get. We talked about so much. I learned so much with Marilyn today.
I'm really excited for you to be able to experience it. So if you've ever found yourself looking at a marketing plan or listening to a marketing company and feeling like they're talking a foreign language. To you, you're.
Going to learn a lot today, so let's get. Started So welcome Marilyn. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today because I know I'm going to learn a lot also.
Thank you for having me, I'm excited to be here.
I want to jump right in with one issue. Problem that I see with a lot of the law firm owners that I work with when it comes to marketing, there is a seems to be a natural distrust of marketing agencies because there's not a lot of understanding of the data in the reports they're given. There's like all these reports with these numbers, but at the end of the day, what they're looking for is am I getting the leads?
And sometimes that doesn't necessary correlate. And then there's just a lot of confusion and sometimes the resistance about bringing in and hiring an outside agency because they just, you know, they've had that problem of distrust and, you know, you're really the expert on SEO for for a law firm. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that and maybe what are some of the number, you know, top tips that you have for lawyers?
Absolutely. I agree with you. I think the barrier to entry as far as a marketing agency goes is, is very low, right?
So you get a lot of people with no experience and they, they hide behind the data or they make up some report or run some reports that then they just don't teach you how to read them. Bottom line is, are you getting leads? Are you making money?
And is that getting better each month? Right. We've been, my company's been doing focusing on attorney since 2018.
And I've been working in digital marketing since the late 90s. So I've seen a lot of changes and I'm still here. So I have clients that we've helped get generate over multiple 7 figures.
So, you know, we do a really good job and we keep our, our, our customers, our clients educated. We want them to understand what we're telling them, right? Everyone has an account manager that reaches out to them by phone and e-mail once a week to explain what last week did you know and get feedback.
That's amazing.
You know, we can sit here and keep generating leads, but if they're not good leads or you're not following up on them, or if we're not playing, both of us playing the right part, then it's it's going to feel like a bad situation. What I tell people is even before we start working together in your Google business profile, there is an insights tab. Now the manager part of it looks different for different places.
Google doesn't roll out new programs across the board to everyone exactly the same. They there's a staged rollout. So I tell everyone, OK, go into your your insights and run a report today because we're going to run a report when we start working with you.
And we're like, this is our baseline. This is where we are now. Your report shows how many searches you came up in, how many directions were clicked on, how many people went to your website, and how many phone calls you got from just in your Google business profile.
So it's all of that data. No one's going to change that data. And it's very clear.
It's written out, you know, it's explained by Google and that's where we're going to run get our data from. You can easily understand that. We have training as well.
And your account manager is is educated to make sure that you understand what we're talking about.
Yeah, this is so key 'cause I think, you know, I've seen some reports that come in just some of my clients and it's like, well, these looks like it's a good thing, but then it's not correlating with the the viable leads, right, that they're receiving. What are some of the things that you would suggest that law firm owners really look for besides running that Google report?
I think it's, it's going to be an accountability on both sides. So we as the agency are going to be accountable to getting you more leads and helping you, you know, understand the reports that we're doing. We do automations that sort of thing to, to engage the leads when it's the office is closed or something like that.
And we're trying to get him to book on your calendar. Now you have to take accountability and make sure that your front desk is answering the phone correctly or in many instances answering the phone. The Better Business Bureau says 67% of small businesses phone calls go unanswered.
So imagine how much you can grow if you answered your phone right? And it could be just staffing, it could be different expectations, but we find that if we have training from the front desk all the way up, we use our CRM, we provide a dashboard for the leads and we train you on how to use them. Speed delete is important.
So, you know, as soon as the lead comes in, what we do for our clients is we text our client that the new lead came in. We text the lead even if it's 2:00 in the morning because hey, they're on their phone and we let them know that we're going to be in touch with them. So we make them feel acknowledged.
So if they're searching for an attorney, you're my client, just reply to them. Where did the other one? Yeah.
And we automate that as soon as it comes through. Boom, they get an e-mail, look out for a call from a member of our team, We'll get you taken care of so they feel acknowledged. Now you've got more relief.
That's amazing. And you do that through the leads that come in, through how? Through the website.
Through a form. So if we're running Facebook ads, we do lead forms. If we're doing Google ads, we do a landing page.
But that form triggers the communication. Now, as soon as they submit it, they get a text, they get an e-mail, you get a text and an e-mail. And of course, my team gets an e-mail just so that we can keep track of what's going on.
Right, I, I do tell even when I was practicing law, the, you know, the biggest rule was is PN CS call it's immediate contact because we know that as as soon as they hang up the phone, they're going to turn around and call the next lawyer and it's just the competition is so much so the speed to lead. Is that what you how you said it? That's a great that's a great concept there yes.
So that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that lawyers make is not paying enough attention to the treating the leads with urgency. That's correct.
And not reaching out enough. Yeah, I had a client that we thought we were just kicking butt and doing a really great job. And, and he tells my account manager, well, you know, I haven't signed anything in three weeks.
That means we've got no ROI in three weeks. And we're like, well, what's the problem? And they're not using our CRM that we provide, so we can't track that they're calling people.
We'll come to find out they were sending one text message when the lead came in. They never actually picked up the phone to call the lead. You know, if someone, if someone is in need of an attorney to the extent that a, they call you or they fill out a form that means they're searching.
They have reached that top of the virus pyramid where they know they have a problem and they're looking for a solution. And if you're not that solution, the next person in Google Maps will be.
Right, yes. So not following up enough or or in the right way. So if one text message is not going to do it, I, I mean, obviously I think everything about business in a lot of different ways, but especially with sales is all about connection.
It's really hard to connect with people and to get them to buy and to trust you to buy in by by just doing a text message. And that would also bring in some of the mistakes that I see. And I'm sure you do too.
And I'd love to hear what you when you because you're talking about training them on this. Is that really having an intake system that teaches that intake team how to make the connection and to be, you know, to be able to make the cell right, even if that's the cell is to get them in for an appointment? What do you see in reference to that that is a a problem?
Well.
One of the first things we ask is, has your team worked with Internet leads before? These are a world apart from referral leads. OK, referral leads, they already know your name.
They already know what you do because someone told.
Told them to trust you.
Exactly where if you're getting a lead from an ad, maybe they looked at your Facebook page. If they the lead was on Instagram or Facebook, maybe they looked at your Google Business profile. If you were running Google Ads, maybe they just hit the call now button on the ad and they clicked the call and and they reached out to you.
Anybody that's done that did that, they are interested in finding a solution to their problem. However, if you're not used to that kind of thing and maybe they don't answer the questions as as appropriately as you expect, or they want to jump straight to how much does it cost those kinds of things. Yeah, there's a lot of people that are shopping, price shopping.
So your front desk needs to have an idea of what types of things they need to be ready to answer. And if they need to be vague about it, then that's fine. They need to explain why they're being vague, but also not expect that every call that comes in from the the ads is going to be a case that you accept.
Now, I have a client that does immigration in the Houston area. She closed 23 cases in one month. The first month she was with us, she was really worried.
She had had another agency she was working with had zero ROI for five months and she was super concerned that she wouldn't be able to renew if she didn't get any cases. So I'm like, no, she, we work together. She was in another law firm I worked with a few years ago and within in the first month, she closed 25% of the leads.
Now that 75% didn't close, but she made $89,000 a month. Yeah. So it also she had the process that if someone was unqualified, she asked them for a referral, that she is the only client that I know in all the time I've been working with attorneys that do that, that does that on a consistent basis.
That's part of a process.
And meaning ask ask for referral. How?
OK, so.
Or something.
No, no, I mean literally you're on the phone with the lead that came in. The lead is is not going to, you can't help them like, but you know, it's immigration, right? She's like, OK, so I can't help you, but is there anybody that you know that I can't?
Oh, got it.
So she's asking the the the disqualified leads for referrals and you know, 23 cases in one month and she went from, you know, I'm not sure how I'm going to pay for next month to hey, let's keep it going. We're.
Just.
Really excited.
Yeah. Well, that's another great tip. OK.
So what is besides those couple of things that seem to make a really big difference, is there something that you guys do that you see makes a world of difference and viable leads that turn into clients?
Again, we talk speed to lead on the client's part. On our side, we have a thing we call like 3 by 5. So when it comes to the number of touches it takes for someone to make a decision or to to follow through on that, that touch, it's used to be 3.
Now it's more like 7:00 to 9:00. So what we do is when the lead comes in, we immediately throw them in Leslie book on your calendar. We immediately put them into an automated sequence of emails and text messages that you want a day for five days.
Now during those five days, you client are the third touch per day and that's a call.
Wow. OK, so you're you're able to get your law firms not only use putting them through a sequence that they're actually getting touched either by text message or e-mail or both text and e-mail, but you're also having the law firm reach out and make a call.
Exactly. Now for some reason they can't or won't make calls. We do offer an optional call center and what we'll do is we will capture the calls 24/7 as they call in.
If a lead form comes in, we call them 20, you know, immediately and we'll call them 10 times until we can book them or we put them in. No, you know, no contact or we can contact them.
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, because the follow up is really important. I and it's one of the things that I see a lot of firms, they might be really good at, you know, the speed to lead, but then not good in the follow up if someone doesn't say yes right away.
Right. It just kind of goes into a black hole and it's like, well, how many times did you call these leads? Well, none.
I mean, I, I actually get that if they don't actually, if the lead doesn't step forward and make that call come into the office or whatever, no one ever reaches out to them.
What's the? Is there like a percentage that you see that that when you make those, that number of touches that actually end up converting?
Between 23 and 28%.
Wow, that's pretty big.
Yeah, that's it. If you, if you follow the process and you have team that can do it. Now, none of our ads, pardon me, none of our ads say that your free consultation is going to be with the attorney.
OK, got it.
Because I can't. I can't have an attorney sitting on a phone call when they should be working a case and making some money, right? So we usually, our clients usually have your front desk or an intake person that actually has these three to five questions they ask, they qualify them, and then they book them on the attorney and they're collecting money.
So it's that kind of thing. The free consultation just gets you to someone in the office that knows how to qualify. If you're qualified and that person does the sale, you get them into the attorney and they're making money.
Are you seeing, I see a trend or pushed by some firms to try to have a not just intake but a non lawyer salesperson? So someone who's not a lawyer that actually does the consultation puts forth what you know, the fee would be etcetera, before they see a lawyer.
Yes, and that's usually it's that's usually the intake person or the paralegal. And if they are, you know, if they can talk the talk. I, I haven't seen any downfall in that because someone's got to bring the dollar value up.
Someone has to bring the price up. And if you've got an intake person that had that is a, a OK salesperson and, but is a very good customer service person and can explain and take the case and say, yes, it does qualify. This is how much it is.
And these are our pricing plans. You know, whatever you need to to do to close that sale and book them on the with the attorney.
I am curious because like you, I work with a lot of different practice areas, you know, a lot of different law firms and different practice areas. I find that doing a non lawyer salesperson works well in like probate and estate planning, but on sometimes on cases or the types of practice where there seems to be really, let's say heavy energy, there's a lot at stake, right? So criminal defense or maybe even family law where there's custody issues and things are really nasty, right?
The, the, there's a lot at stake. I find that the success of a non lawyer salesperson isn't working as well. Have you seen that trend?
I have not seen that trend and it's very similar to we have a worker's client, client and personal injury clients that have a team of intake people that do the qualification and accepting in case. Now those are different because of contingency, but at the same time, you know, estate planning, yes, but family law, once you get them qualified, this is what the at the range of pricing is going to be. Then book them with the attorney.
I mean, it's it's when it's high energy, like you said, it's, it's high emotional value with like divorce and criminal. But I also found that with criminal it's it's like, you know, especially if you're a parent of a teenager that's in jail for GUI, you don't want them sitting there any longer. So the first.
Person answers the time, Yeah.
Exactly. And so, you know, if they're in the attorney's office and they say they can help you and they can be at the at the jail in 10 minutes, that's not a hard close.
Yeah, Yeah. OK, great. This is wonderful.
One of the things I know that you really have some tips around that I think our listeners would really love to know is using the, the your Google business profile to dominate your local visibility. What are your tips around that? And 'cause that seems like that would be something that you can do and it doesn't cost a whole lot to do.
I'm sure that there's maybe some ads that can go in that to you, but what do you have to tell us about that?
Yeah, that's, that's kind of my soapbox. So, so many companies, so many people don't realize the power. We keep thinking of Google My Business as a place to store reviews.
Well, every iteration from Google Places has new and more features. So the Google Business profile is more like think of it as Google social media, right? So if you put a post on Facebook, Facebook or Instagram is going to show that to 10% of your audience, right?
10%. What if you take that same information and put it on your Google Business profile? Because the Google Business profile, you have posts, you have products, you have services, you have all of this information, including videos and pictures that you can list.
And the more information you give Google, the more services or the more searches they see you to be relevant for, right? So if I know whoever sees my Google Business profile is a potential new client that is searching for a solution to a problem, am I going to post on Facebook or am I going to post on Google Business Profile?
OK. So I didn't even realize that you could do that on Google Business Profile. So what are the kinds?
And obviously you're speaking to the client that has the problem. So what are the kind of post? Maybe you can use a particular practice area that you've have clients do and Oregon videos.
Yes, O we have so you have photos and videos that you can put U and on the base. OK, so it's on your main part of your Google business Rofile to identify yourself. And we suggest doing like the front of your office and then a team shot and then the attorney shot.
So do all those things for the know, like and trust factor, right? Rename your photos with the practice area and your city. So do that.
Get all of that information up. If your area has seven categories that you can put in, choose your most popular, whatever you want, the priority order of your categories. Never ever use just lawyer law firm.
I I cringe when I see that when I'm looking up something and that's their category.
OK, So give me examples of categories if we're not you're a law firm divorce like specific practice area.
Exactly, exactly. Criminal, criminal defense, personal injury, not even just personal injury, car accident. It gets very granular.
They're already defined, so it's not like you can go and type it in, but you can just.
Say they are defined, but you can choose.
Exactly. And then some areas have 6, some areas have 8. So like I said, they roll out features.
So get your name, address and phone number exactly the way it is legally. Get your category set up and then connect your website. Connect the phone number, make sure obviously the directions are set up and then in the posts section you can put anything you want.
With our clients we do 4 posts a month minimum and they are articles that we write based around a part of their service and the keyword that would then link it back to your website. So imagine the value of a google.com link back to your website.
Right.
OK. So we do four of those a month now. They also have Q&A and I've had clients say, well, nobody's asked me any questions on my Google Business profile.
Well, why don't you ask a few? Because we all have FAQs, right?
Right.
And your FAQs are the same question that every potential new client asks you, so why not put it on there?
Yes.
Because also, if you've ever asked a question to Google and they can bring up all these additional questions, well, some of those additional questions all come from the same place and it could be your website.
That's amazing. So let me ask a clarifying question real quick about the post. When you say it's articles that you write, is it linking to something that's on the client's website or is it it's certain links of art articles?
You know, so many words that you actually can do in a post?
It's a, it's a literal article with an image. OK. And you, we put that on their blog as well.
So it's the same thing. We're putting two places. Now.
The key with the main keyword is going to link back to the home page from both places. So that one article we write will go in both places because it's important to have it on your website for content, but it's super important to have it on your Google business profile For more information about you. And it could be something as how does how do you hire a personal injury attorney or what to look for in a family law attorney?
Right.
You know, and The thing is, is if you've ever done advertising, doing anything with family law attorney doesn't get the traction that divorce attorney does. So in the US, our colloquialism, if you will, is people think of it a divorce attorney and they do all of the things in family law. But if you say family law, they're at a loss of what?
What's included?
Right. Yeah, I bet custody is also a good term. It is, yeah.
Yeah, but I've found people that and you know, if you do ads, people see custody under divorce. It's just in their head, part of that where family law is like what exactly?
What? What is that? Yeah.
OK, so we covered photos and we covered post. What about videos that you can do?
Absolutely. That you can do, and you really need to do that. One of the things I suggest my clients do is sit with your phone in front of you.
Talk not to the phone, but to that potential new client and tell them who you are, what you do, and why you can help them.
Is there a limit on like the time I'm in on videos or anything?
I usually try to keep them to a minute because you know and, but unless you've got a video on your homepage, now that intro video can be on your homepage as well. If somebody clicks through to your website from your Google business profile, which was found in a search, and they spend some time on your website before going back to Google, Google sees that as irrelevant. So by having video in your homepage they will stay there long enough to watch that video where if they hit your homepage and within like say 5 seconds they go back to Google, Google records that as you not being relevant for that that search.
Oh, which is going to hurt you?
It can if if you were relevant for it and you just didn't have any, the right thing on your homepage, like maybe you didn't have your phone number, you didn't have some of those conversion items that we talked about, or a video. Video is just a great way for people to spend a minute or two on your website and watch a video. They don't know that Google's keeping time.
Right, exactly. This is all so fascinating and I know you've actually written a whole a book, right? A training guide on Google Business Profiles.
I have I wrote the book, the Google Business Profile Training Guide and most recently the 2025 Local Visibility book. And I go further than just your Google Business profile to all the other things you can do in your local community to get backlinks to be found and to be found as the go to attorney for your practice area in your.
Your area. Wow. So what are what are one or two tips for that?
Do you do any volunteer work? They probably have a website. Ask for a link back to your to your website.
Are.
You a member of a chamber or B and I or Rotary or any of those kinds of things that has a website, ask for backlinks.
That's a really great tip.
You know, if you Yeah. And there's another really interesting one is setting up, starting a Facebook group for your local community and inviting all the businesses in. And then they can all have, you know, there be members of the the community and they refer each other within the community.
And just because you sponsor it. Yeah, it's very easy and it's free.
Yeah, that's really, that's a great tip. Wow, wow. I this has been so interesting.
And of course we're going to link everything here on the show page back to everything where people can find you and links to the books that you've written. Which brings me into, I really want to talk a bit of a moment. And it's one of the questions we always ask our guests about what we're you're excited about creating.
And I know the answer to this, but tell tell us about that.
Well, my newest book that released last week, and I just got my copy of it this week is the 2025 Local Visibility Guide, How to Outrank and Outshine and Outperform Your Competition. I really that that book was a pleasure to write. It kind of encompassed a lot that we talked about and the new features of the Google business profile and then all the other things you can do to be found locally.
And there's even a 90 day game plan at the end and a glossary because we, of course, you know, love the education part of what we do. And then I won't clients and our future clients to be prepared for 2025 to do to be your best year yet. So in addition to that, I have a free event on LinkedIn of a digital marketing planning program for 2025 to help you plan your your marketing because even the law review board has a recommendation of the amount of your revenue, your future revenue you should be investing in in marketing to reach that.
So we have a marketing planning workshop for you.
Oh, awesome. And is that something that's on a specific date or you can basically take it attend at any time?
You can attend at any time. I have it. I have it going on on Wednesday December 18th and it's on my my LinkedIn profile.
But it is Evergreen so you can catch the replay anytime that works for you. It comes with a workbook and a spreadsheet.
That's awesome. I, I love giving, you know, I can really tell that you're passionate about what you do and I think it's so important for us to share like the wisdom and the magic that we have out into the world. And that's that's really awesome that you're doing that.
We will definitely link that. My second closing question for you that we usually ask everyone is what is 1 rule that you would tell lawyers to break? This might be something that they think is, you know, well, I don't know if I could do that.
Tell us what you think that is. A is a rule that lawyers should break.
Video the know, like and trust. You know, I've got I've got, I know some attorneys that do little short videos every day. And I know attorneys that are absolutely terrified to do it.
And all you're doing is educating your future client, right? Yeah, it's just in the keep them, you know, 30 to 60 seconds. You don't, you're not giving a dissertation, you're not writing an opinion piece or a white, white paper, right?
You're just explaining how do you do this? How do you choose that? Is there an update to the law?
Has something changed locally? Speak it, put it on all the socials, but also put it on your Google Business profile and put it on your website and build a YouTube channel. It's simple, but it's something that people don't want to do.
Right, well, the know like and trust, a lot of times, you know, lawyers think they have to have a certain mask that we put out to the world. But really what people want is authenticity. So it doesn't have to be perfect.
And the more that you I find and I, you know, I do a lot of this in my own work is that the more that you just show up and show who you are, then the more people believe you, right? They trust you. So I think a lot of times lawyers get really caught up on that.
It has to be perfect. Well, The thing is and.
Normal people think that you guys are are unapproachable because you, you know so much more about the law and Oh my God, what if? What if I say something wrong? Get your voice out there.
People do business with people they know, like and trust.
So true, So true. All right. Our final closing question is what's one thing that you do to be a healthier, happier person?
I get outside for an hour at least every day.
Oh, I love it. I, you know, the same thing I try for me when I miss it, you can really tell it. That's a really key one.
Well, Marilyn, thank you so much for your time. This has been so insightful and informative, and I'm really excited to dive into the new book. Can't wait to read it.
And congratulations. Yeah. Congratulations on finishing that.
So thank you for being here with us.
Thank you so much. This has been a pleasure and if any questions come up please just let me know.
Yes, thank you. Thanks for listening to today's episode of Mind Over Law. We hope that you're walking away inspired and ready to embrace your life and law practice in a more holistic, healthier, happier way.
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