Welcome to the Mind Over Law podcast where we break the traditional rules of practicing law.
Our focus is helping you first to become a better, happier person, which in turn will make you a better, happier lawyer both in and out of the courtroom. We will combine mindset and energy practices grounded in ancient wisdom along with cutting edge neuroscience give you those skills.
Plus I'll have deep conversations with some of the most thoughtful leaders that will share their life stories, their leadership journeys and their legal practice wisdom. I'm Lexley Overton and my promise is that each episode will offer practical insights and strategies to empower your law practice, your leadership skills, and most of all, your personal well being.
Join me and I promise you'll become a better you lawyer and and leader. Welcome to the Mind Over Law podcast where we explore what it means to really live and lead as your best self in the legal profession.
I'm Lex Lee Overton, your host and I'm really excited about our today's guest who is a powerhouse in big law and a fierce advocate for lawyer well being a subject close to my heart. Today we have Emily Logan Style Dedman, who has spent over a decade in the legal trenches, from trials to appeals to negotiating high stakes contract disputes, all the while speaking openly about what it takes to thrive, not just survive, in this profession.
I'm so honored to welcome Emily today. She doesn't just practice law, she reimagines what it can look like when we bring our whole selves to it.
So let's dive in, explore her journey and draw from her wisdom and learn how to lead even more intentionally. Emily, thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you so much for having me.
I want to dive right in. So you have a long time as a litigator and I know from my background as a litigator there's sometimes pivotal seasons or cases that make us stop and think.
I don't think I can practice law like this anymore. Is there anything that comes up for you when I ask that question that you're like, yeah, I think I'm going to have to do this differently?
Yes. I was about a fourth year associate, so this was 2019.
2020. And I just completely burned out.
And there was a lot leading up to that moment, including just professional chaos. But also personally, I got married during that time.
Yeah.
Pandemic started and I ended up meeting my family on the coast of Georgia for a vacation and I had a full blown panic attack on a boat. Deep sea fishing.
Yeah.
And my family had to stop the fishing trip and take me Back to land. And both my parents are attorneys.
And that was the first time really my dad pulled me aside and was like, something's going on here. I understand why you might not want to do this forever.
And that was really the permission slip I needed to reevaluate. So that is then what led me on the journey that I'm sure.
That is so amazing. Our stories are.
And we have not talked before now. I've just been reading and following a lot of your stuff, which is amazing.
But I practice with my dad too. My mom's a lawyer too.
And I was probably, I think it was about four years in when I tell the story about walking out of emotion hearing in northern Louisiana thinking I was having a heart attack. Old age of 31, very similar.
So tell me, what did you do as a result? Because panic attacks are very scary and I'd love to hear more about what that led you to.
So it really led me, I think for the first time to ask myself, what did I want to do the rest of my life? And if it was being an attorney, what did I want that to look like?
And was what I was currently doing in line with that? And the answer to that question was ultimately no, it wasn't in line with who I am authentically, what I wanted to be doing long term.
And how was I going to course correct from there, which is terrifying for a lot of young attorneys, for people who have succeeded their whole lives and been high achievers, to all of a sudden be like, wait a minute, this isn't working. And there was a lot of self doubt in there, like maybe leaving the law altogether.
And it was my husband who was actually like, Emily, I think you actually like being an att, but you might just need a change in environment. And so I started to look to change firms.
And lateraling isn't the answer for everyone. I have seen people have this sort of same moment in their firms for support.
I didn't know how to ask a firm for support. I didn't know what the options were.
And throughout the lateraling process, I just said to myself, I'm going to take everything I've learned from my first firm. The good, the bad, the ugly.
I'm going to be extremely intentional about how I build my practice from here on out. And I'm going to be fully and authentically myself while I do that.
And if my new firm, wherever that is, is not supportive, I'll leave. Fortunately, my new firm is the firm I'm still at today.
And they've been remarkably Supportive in those efforts. Awesome.
So I have a couple of questions I want to circle back when I was just taking notes. Cause I'm like, I don't want to for.
Because you have so much that you can offer to us. One of the first things that you said is you just realized that you were burned out.
And I have a lot of lawyers that come to me with, I don't know. And the next thing they usually say is, I don't know if I want to continue to do this.
And I always say, okay, we don't make huge life decisions from a place of burnout because nobody has the energy for anything. And that for you, because there's so many people who don't even recognize that's where they're headed.
What defined burned out for you? Like, physically, emotionally, mentally, like, what did that look like?
Several things. One, I was sleeping a ton.
Because for me, sleep was my only escape. I would say to my husband, that's the only time my brain turns off.
So looking for an escape in that way. Two, I had given up hobbies, and I hadn't necessarily realized that I had given them up.
So I had stopped playing tennis, which was something that was very important and crucial to my mental health. I started having sort of scary thoughts.
Like, I'd be driving to work, be in traffic, and think, if I just gotten, like, fender bender that required me to go to the hospital and get checked out, I could take a break. Like, I'd have an excuse to pause.
And that's an example I use a lot because I think a lot of people have thoughts like that. We don't talk about it, but whenever I share it, I always see the light bulbs go off where people are like, oh, I've either been there or I'm there now.
And to me, that's a real sign that you're burning out or have burned out. And it's time to think about recovery.
And it's like this underlying theme that we have to continue to hustle, and if we don't, we're a failure. I think that's a badge that we need to quit wearing.
And the idea that you have to. The only way you could give your permission time to stop is if you got in an accident, then it would be acceptable.
Because there is a standard in this profession that is you just need to push harder and harder. And it's really when that is what we've been taught.
And you're, what, like a dozen years into practice now? And I'm 30 years in.
So it is A message that has been around for a very long time, and it's still prevalent that we have to push harder to actually win. And really what I like to say is to be a better lawyer, you need to learn how to manage your energy.
And you know what?
It's.
And so it makes sense to me when you were like, oh, I start. I quit playing tennis, something that meant something to you.
Because I think when we are putting all our energy into the work and we're overextended, then we start to pull back from our relationships. And we pull back because we don't have the energy to fuel them.
And then giving up something that actually is really good for you emotionally and physically, like, tennis is like a cycle that you start to get in. You don't even realize it.
Absolutely.
I think it's important, though, that's a good thing for people to think about. Am I giving up relationships?
Am I pulling back from friendships? Do I find myself irritable all the time with everybody around me?
Am I giving up things that are important to me? And those are all little signs that you're heading down a path that's actually could be really detrimental.
So thanks for sharing that. You talked about that when you started to search for different firms because you didn't know how to ask for support for those that are out there listening.
Because I didn't work in big law, I worked in my family firm, and that's all where I've been, and then started my own practice. If someone is in a firm, how do you think that they should ask for help?
And as a leader, because I know you're a leader in the role that you're in now, what should we be doing differently as leaders, where people feel like they have the permission to do that or that's important to us to
open those conversations for the second question. Lead by example.
So one example I give is about a year ago, I was headed into a period of almost two dozen plus depositions. And they were not in Milwaukee, where I live.
They were in Atlanta, Kansas City, Texas. I was traveling more than I'd ever traveled before.
And I had two associates, a first year and a senior associate supporting me and helping on the file. And I just tried to model to them and lead by example.
When I needed a break and I would say things to them like, okay, we've finished today's deposition. We don't have one tomorrow.
I'm not going to take my computer back to my hotel. I'm going to leave it in our Kansas City office for the night so that I can create that boundary and really give myself a break tonight.
If you need me, you have my cell phone number. I have teams on my iPad.
But really modeling that behavior and showing that yes, we're in a crazy intense time, but I'm not gonna make it through this crazy intense time if I don't, as you said, protect my energy and try to fill that energy back up when I can. And so when I had a moment that I could, I verbalized what I was doing to model that for my associates.
And I think that's what partners have to do. That's what senior associates, any assigning attorney needs to do is lead by example.
For anyone listening that wants to ask for help and doesn't know how. I think I had a mentor at the time.
He was a senior associate at the time, now equity partner who I could have gone to and talked to about this and he would have known where to point me and what to do. It was actually some associates later that I watched do that.
They asked for help. They said I need some time off.
They said I'm going to take this time off and when I come back I'm going to reconfigure my practice and who I'm working for. All of those things would have benefited me.
And I didn't know how to ask for them or I didn't think it. You did ask for them and it's actually those younger associates who are now modeling that.
So I think have a mentor that you trust that you can talk to about that. It can be a partner or it can be a senior associate, someone at the firm who's connected but trustworthy, who can guide you and be honest with you about whether that's even an option.
Yeah, beautiful. I love your example of being very specific on how you would say.
And it's also giving them permission. And what people don't understand is that when they restore like that you actually come in sharper, you're better because your system is not in fight or flight.
If I stay in energy depletion, that's where I am and then that's not the highest performing that we could be. I try to reinforce all the time with leaders that if you want to have a high performing team, then you need to be leading well being point blank.
It's going to affect because the. You can't be high performing if you're depleted like that.
I had recently. My oldest daughter is 31 years old and she's a high functioning exact and she messaged me two Weeks ago.
And she said, oh no, they want me in New York three weeks back to back. And she lives in Texas.
And so what I could hear from her was like, oh, and she has the same mentality. She's not in the legal profession, but young.
Exact.
Pushing hard, building her career.
Yep.
And my first thing to her the text was is, you need to prioritize your well being, which means your sleep and do not skip your exercise. Like those are the two most important in your nutrition.
Too much things that I could give you as a mom. It says this is how you're going to handle that.
I think as leaders, we need to be doing that and setting more examples as what other things do you do? That's a beautiful example.
When you guys turn it off for the night, are there other things that you or your firm do to lead wellbeing? Prioritize it, talk about it.
For me, it's just that I prioritize it, I talk about it. My firm has.
It's not a wellbeing committee. It's run by certified health coaches and we have ambassadors in our offices and around the office.
You'll find tips and tricks on monitoring your wellbeing. We participate in Lawyer Wellbeing week, but for the most part, for me personally, it's prioritizing it as best as I can and talking about it as much as I can.
Because talking about it destigmatizes it for both those senior to me and those junior.
Yeah, great. Awesome.
I love that. I love the initiatives that your firm, that they're doing because again, that's modeling it for people.
I want to circle back to when you were talking about, you were asking yourself, is this what I want to do and is this aligned with who I want to be and showing up with authenticity? Let's talk a little bit more about that.
How do you stay authentic and what is it that you defined for yourself and what that even means?
That's a great question. I think if you've been a high achiever for your whole life, which most high achievers have been, you almost start going through the motions.
You know what the next goal is, you know what you're striving for, and you know what others expectations of you are, and you just mindlessly get in the loop and follow the steps and climb the ladder. And I had to stop myself and say, is this the ladder I want?
And ultimately it was. Which I also had to come to terms with the fact that I like being a big law attorney, I like being a corporate office downtown.
I Like being ambitious, but instead of doing it for other people, instead of doing it because that's what my parents expected of me. I was, like, turned inward and said, okay, I'm now doing this for me, and how do I want that to look for me?
And all of this is couched within being in a big law setting in a big firm where the expectations are really high. And so I can't change those expectations.
I can't change those requirements to meet my goals. I need to meet or beat those expectations and requirements.
But I could start exercising control over my day in very small ways, like blocking off certain chunks on my calendar to remind myself I don't have to have meetings then if I don't want to, or unless it's absolutely required, or the only time people can meet. Relying on routines.
Like, when I get to my desk, I do the same things every morning to start my day and get my head settled for work. I do the same things to end my day, to get my head out of work and transition into whatever I have going on after work.
And all of those things help me feel like I'm in control of some of my time and some of my choices. And it really can be that small.
One of the things I did was like, I want to start reading for fun. I'm going to read eight pages a day, just eight pages.
Or I'm going to read just for 10 minutes a day. So one thing every day that is just for you.
And eventually you'll start finding more pockets of time where you can do more than just read eight pages a day.
I love that. So I like the idea of just one thing a day for use and giving yourself permission for that.
I know that in following a lot of your work and your insight that you put out into the world that you talk about and you emphasize systems and routines and this is a like an idea of there's a certain routine which I'd love to know when I get to my desk in the morning. There's a certain routine when I sign off at night.
Can you talk a little bit more about how routines probably have given you some autonomy and feel like you're a little bit more free to be more intentional with who you are and how you show up and, like, maybe what your favorite is?
Yeah. So I am type A.
You will have listeners listening that are not type A. And if you hear anything from me, it's experiment and be yourself.
So if I see something and you try it and it doesn't work for you, that's fine. Now and you can try the next thing.
But for me, my routines are a lot about one, putting some predictability into my day. Because as no two days are the same, as a litigator, there might be tasks that repeat themselves, but no two days are identical.
And two, clearing my brain of clutter so that I don't feel the weight of all my obligations. And so every morning when I sit down at my desk, I review all the emails that came in overnight and clear out my inbox and update my to do list for the day.
It takes anywhere from two minutes to 30 minutes, depending on what's going on. And on my to do list, I prioritize my tasks so I'll quite literally number them.
Or if there's a hard deadline that day, I highlight it and there's a star. And at the end of the day, I basically do those exact same things.
I go through my inbox, add things to tomorrow's to do list, I review today's tasks and enter my time. So if you're under the billable hour model, I do enter my time every day, which to some people sounds really onerous, but for me, those 0.2, those 12 minutes are much less onerous than trying to do it once a week or once a month and recreating my time.
And then I create tomorrow's to do list so I know what I'm walking into the next day. And one thing that's hard about this job, particularly for young attorneys, is this need that you tell yourself I have to always be on.
I have to be checking my email all the time. And by doing that review at the end of my day, I know whether I need to be on that evening.
I know if there's an emergency or some time sensitive thing floating in the background that will require me to get back online or be checking my email more than I would like to be. Or I, I don't need to check my email tonight.
If an emergency pops up, they'll call me or text me, but tonight's a night where I can turn that off. And that sort of daily evaluation puts you in charge of, like you said, your energy outside your working hours.
Yeah, that daily evaluation is like in a daily awareness. And then it allows you to build a structure and prioritize, which helps you to be way more intentional.
I love that. And I guess the idea of feeling like you have awareness of what's there and what's the most important thing is the thing that sort of lets you clear your head.
Absolutely, yeah.
As opposed to there might Be a million things out there I'm missing, which is like in that loop.
Yeah. And that's.
We talk a lot in. I've had associates ask me, how do I take a vacation?
It's just going to be more work before and after. I'm like, yes, but you can do these evaluations and you can set up your matters and your teams and your colleagues for success while you're gone and build in buffer time.
If you're going to take a vacation, I always recommend coming back a day earlier than you have to be in the office so you can regroup on that buffer day, do chores or look ahead into your week. And I do that almost every Sunday.
I spend 30 minutes to an hour looking at the week ahead. Not necessarily to do any work, but so I know what I'm walking into on Monday morning allows me to be more proactive rather than just reacting to whatever happens to be in my inbox when I get to my desk.
I do the same.
And I teach that. I think that when you're like prioritizing, these are the things that are on
the to do list.
And I bet you do this. The next step for me is that I'm thinking, like, if I prioritize, these are my top three things, how long is it going to take?
And then I block for it. And I put that as a time blocked on the calendar.
And then I don't allow myself to be distracted by other things. I don't have email on, I don't have my team's message on.
Don't look at cell phone. I know nothing terrible is going to happen in that hour.
Now some people in different areas of law might think differently. And when I had a full time practice, I just, my staff knew, you interrupt me if it's a judge or if it's my child's school.
Those are the things that are going to be the emergency in the next hour. But there's this whole idea that we have to, when you say always be on whether it's vacation or not, like in the day that I need to be available to everyone and actually it makes us way slower and, and not have full brain power on what we need to do.
So I like that you have the time built in the morning and in the afternoon. I bet you time block.
And that allows you not to have distractions otherwise.
So I am actually horrible at time blocking. It's not something I've ever been able to do because inevitably I do the task before the block or some other emergency has come up.
But I do very much prioritize and I think I advocate for time blocking if it works for you, because again, you're taking that task and putting it on your calendar and that clear space in your mind because you've taken care of it and you've accounted for it down the line. I instead just commit to what I'm going to do that day.
And if I get to the other stuff, great. But like, I have a few non negotiables.
And I think over time in this job, you learn that most emergencies aren't emergency. And you learn in most scenarios, like you were talking about, you're not that important.
Sometimes you are.
Yeah.
And you really learn and hone in and develop this skill of knowing what can wait and what can't wait. And I'm constantly evaluating what can wait and what can't.
And if I get to a space in any given day where everything on my to do list can wait, I say to myself, can I go home? Can I go to the grocery store?
Or do I want to spend more time on LinkedIn and develop my personal brand, or do I want to look ahead and start preparing for this deposition? But when everything can wait, and when you get really good at acknowledging that question and having the answer, you can exercise that control and choice over what comes next.
And so many attorneys feel like they lack that control and choice, and lacking autonomy in that way is like a major driver in poor workplace satisfaction. And so looking for those small ways where you can exercise that autonomy will really build your sense of control and workplace satisfaction.
Yeah. And that satisfaction part of it comes in when you talk about, oh, I decide what are my non negotiables for today that I have to achieve?
And if you really get intentional about that, when I say to people like, what must happen today? We're not talking about, yeah, I'd like to work on the deposition this next week.
I'm not. What must happen today.
It usually comes down to somewhere to three to four things. And if you can just be intentional about those, then, you know, you're helping.
You're giving yourself a little dopamine hit when you succeed at it, which helps with the satisfaction.
Right.
I feel like I got accomplished, but I accomplished the most important things. Takes down a little of that anxiety that we always feel like we're in that rat race on.
There will always be more to do. Your to do list is never going to end in this job.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah.
This such great tips. I love it.
Yeah. And I had in here that I was going to ask you about.
I think when you're like, oh, try it. If it doesn't work for you, then it didn't work.
I say to people, I have this like, well being toolbox, even high performance toolbox that all ties together and I can give you lots of different tools. If it doesn't work, just put it back in the box and pull the next one out.
So you've given us some great ideas. I love this.
So we wrap out every podcast with three questions. So I'm ready to give them to you.
The first one is I want to know something that you're excited about in your life, whether it's career or personal life. What's something that's really got you like, giddy thinking about?
So actually right now when we record this, it's February and I live in Wisconsin and I was born and raised in Atlanta and my whole family that I like, my nuclear family that I was born into still lives in Atlanta. And this weekend my 8 year old nephew and his dad are coming up to go ice fishing.
Oh, that is fun. Yeah.
And it'll just be a very unique experience for them. It won't be terribly cold this weekend where we go fishing.
We call it up north in Wisconsin, so very northern Wisconsin. And I'm just excited for him to see snow and ice and spend some time with my husband ice fishing.
Oh, that's awesome. And I think anytime we could do anything outdoors, it doesn't matter the conditions.
That's something that's fueling for our energy, but also connection. So important.
When we were talking about a lot of times when we're really low energy, we don't feel like we have the ability to fuel those connections. And really they're so important for happiness levels.
So that's awesome. You're, you're getting a lot accomplished with that.
The next question is what's one rule that you would tell lawyers to break like this? That might be a traditional thing that's in the way that we think that like we talked about, it's not all about the hustle is one you need to break that rule.
What would be something else?
I think that you need to do it. Whether that's make partner, build a book of business, start your own firm the way it's always been done.
And for me that comes back to being yourself. So when I was an associate, I went to this conference for female litigators in Chicago, and a big time partner and litigator at a big Chicago firm said, look, if you can't be yourself, where you are go until you find where you can be yourself.
And that was really the first inkling I had to ask myself, am I being myself? Can I be myself?
What does that even mean? We need to get out of this cycle of just doing what's expected of us, doing it how it's always been done, and asking ourselves, what do I want and can I do it in a way that is true to me?
I love it. Love it.
Okay, our final question. You've given us lots of ideas, so I'm going to say that you could only choose one thing to have in your life.
What's one practice that helps you to be a healthier, happier person?
Meditation. I'm excited.
I found meditation in a desperate moment in an Airport almost 10 years ago now. I was 2016 or 17 and I have never looked back.
I was skeptical. I didn't really believe that it would work.
And anytime I'm overwhelmed, it is those mindfulness meditation techniques that I come back to when I'm nervous before hearing. That's what I lean on.
When I can't sleep at night, that's what I lean on. I can now meditate for 10 minutes without any guidance, like completely on my own, which is great to me, but it has really helped me manage intrusive thoughts, rumination, imposter syndrome and all of that.
So meditation. And if you're gonna try it, my advice again, experiment.
It's like listening to a podcast. If you don't like the person's voice, you're not gonna the meditation.
So find someone whose voice isn't like nails on a chalkboard and go from there.
Definitely. And I just tell people because a lot of times their eyes just glaze over.
Yeah.
Like, oh, look, it's not what you think. It's not that you're not going to think you've tried to do that and you failed at it.
Give yourself permission and like, meditation is like the word athletics. Underneath athletics, there's many types of sports and like you just named your favorite is mindfulness practices.
That's one type of meditation.
There's so many.
So if one doesn't work, give another shot. Yeah, this is lots of different ones to try out there.
And I just love that's your answer. Because I talk about meditation nonstop.
So I need someone else to back me up because when people think I'm
crazy, especially it's like the one really woo thing I do, I do some vision work and journaling, but I've always been a journaler from a very young age. So meditation is something I like to throw in because I literally was having a very hard time and sitting in an airport and went through the app store where's a meditation app happened to find Headspace and I've been a member of Headspace ever since though.
Oh I love it. Thank you so much for being here.
So much wisdom and great tips and I've really enjoyed it.
Yeah, it was great chatting with you. Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening to today's episode of Mind Over Law. We hope that you're walking away inspired and ready to embrace your life and law practice in a more holistic, healthier, happier way.
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